[Paul Coleman]

I hear you Groundhog but:  At £25ish ph I get all the work I want and have not too much fear of being undercut. Also at £25ph Mrs Smith is happy for me to have me back 6 or 7 times a year...at £50 it'd be 2 if I'm lucky.

But when all's said and done barring petrol £25 is net money...I might replace a scrim/rubber from time to time :

I haven't canvassed for 18 months as all of my new work is from Recs.

I never took up w/c ing to make a fortune...just a nice living being my own boss.

Simon

You say that you are happy with earning £25.00 per hour, which on it own looks like a good figure to earn.

But you are not earning £25.00 per hour, you say that apart from petrol you only pay for scrims/rubbers from time to time.

What happens if you have a holiday or day off, what if you are sick and can't earn, this comes off your £25.00.

You pay for petrol but what about the insurance-road tax-breakdowns and even replacing the vechicle when its worn out.

You buy shoes and work gear because of you job this also comes off your £25.00.

You might have public insurance, but you will have to pay Nat Insurance and Income Tax.

Every year you have to do your books for the tax man, you can either pay an accountant or spend xxx amount of hours doing them yourself, this also comes out of you £25.00, if you get them wrong and the tax man fines you then this also comes out of your £25.00.

Do you pay for a pension, more from that £25.00.

At the end of the day, its dosen't matter what you charge per hour its what that figure is really worth when you take all of the deductables from it.

You say that £25.00 is a good amount to earn from an unskilled job, don't run yourself down, window cleaning is both dangerous and skilled and you should charge accordingly.

If you ask Mrs smith how much she pays a plumber-electrian-decorator just to turn up then you are charging a pittance for a skilled job.

If you want to earn £25.00 per hour net, then you need to start at this figure and then add on all of the other bits that you will spend to come to a gross figure to charge.

I agree with most of what you say William but I wouldn't classify most window cleaning as skilled.  There is certainly a knack to it and most people who start it don't have the resilience to sustain it over the long term.  If skill does come into it then I would suggest that it's more about cherry pickers, cradles and abseiling.  I know that even scaffolding was classed as semi skilled many years ago (though this may have changed).  I'm not doing myself down but although I feel that certain aspects of window cleaning could be classed at the high end of semi-skilled, I certainly do not classify myself as a skilled worker.  I charge what I do due to recouping my outlay, to cover the extra costs of just BEING self-employed (insurances, holiday, sickness, pension, re-investing and to cover the extra misc bits of downtime for when things go wrong.  I do like to end up with a good income once that lot is taken care of.  Of course tax and NI take a large chunk of the turnover too.

[supernova77]

It looks like some of us view Window Cleaning as our business... And others just view it as a job 

Andy

[simon knight]

Mr Groundhog and Mr NWH, Please believe me when i say I'm not being defensive and I appreciate that you have my best interests at heart. But I know what the market price is where I work and if I try to up my prices to the scale you're suggesting there's plenty of w/c ers around where i work who'll take my biz with lower quotes. Suffice to say my competition are not English!!!!!

I know I'm pricing right because I get turned down more and more these days.

As I say if you guys can charge what you charge then bloody good luck to you....but for me?...the competition is too stiff here.

I earn OK and me Liz (my daughter) and Mrs k don't starve and we pay our bills and have holidays....I work 6ish hours a day, maybe 3 on saturdays when I need to catch up....

....guys, Bless You for your comments but trust me I'm content.

[simon knight]

It looks like some of us view Window Cleaning as our business... And others just view it as a job 

Andy

What's the difference?

[Paul Coleman]

Mr Groundhog and Mr NWH, Please believe me when i say I'm not being defensive and I appreciate that you have my best interests at heart. But I know what the market price is where I work and if I try to up my prices to the scale you're suggesting there's plenty of w/c ers around where i work who'll take my biz with lower quotes. Suffice to say my competition are not English!!!!!

I know I'm pricing right because I get turned down more and more these days.

As I say if you guys can charge what you charge then bloody good luck to you....but for me?...the competition is too stiff here.

I earn OK and me Liz (my daughter) and Mrs k don't starve and we pay our bills and have holidays....I work 6ish hours a day, maybe 3 on saturdays when I need to catch up....

....guys, Bless You for your comments but trust me I'm content.

And I'm very glad that you are happy too Simon.  I'm surprised to read that you regard that amount as the going rate in your area as you are in SW London.  I have to admit that to achieve the rates that I want to earn, I've had to travel a few miles out from where I live.  Money making isn't a huge motivator for me either.  I am more motivated by the thought of reducing my debts and by being able to have more time off eventually but money for its own sake is a non-starter with me.

[Count Phil]

I would like to repeat the fact that not many people can stick window cleaning long enough to make it worthwhile.

They often start cheap and give up. So it should be valued slightly more than just unskilled labour. For example, how long does it take to build a round and how many stick their first winter in which they endure bad weather and little money? Far less than half who start up I would say. So being regular in all seasons is something you should pride yourself on and charge for.

And the £50 and hour arguement? I cannot claim to earn that. But on some jobs I do. On each of them I have normally expected it to take longer to do and then found its a quick job when you actually do it. The customers don't moan, I don't lower the price. So what's to stop me INTENTIONALLY pricing at £50 per hour? Just confidence.

Maybe its a wake up call?

[williamx]

I hear you Groundhog but:  At £25ish ph I get all the work I want and have not too much fear of being undercut. Also at £25ph Mrs Smith is happy for me to have me back 6 or 7 times a year...at £50 it'd be 2 if I'm lucky.

But when all's said and done barring petrol £25 is net money...I might replace a scrim/rubber from time to time :

I haven't canvassed for 18 months as all of my new work is from Recs.

I never took up w/c ing to make a fortune...just a nice living being my own boss.

Simon

You say that you are happy with earning £25.00 per hour, which on it own looks like a good figure to earn.

But you are not earning £25.00 per hour, you say that apart from petrol you only pay for scrims/rubbers from time to time.

What happens if you have a holiday or day off, what if you are sick and can't earn, this comes off your £25.00.

You pay for petrol but what about the insurance-road tax-breakdowns and even replacing the vechicle when its worn out.

You buy shoes and work gear because of you job this also comes off your £25.00.

You might have public insurance, but you will have to pay Nat Insurance and Income Tax.

Every year you have to do your books for the tax man, you can either pay an accountant or spend xxx amount of hours doing them yourself, this also comes out of you £25.00, if you get them wrong and the tax man fines you then this also comes out of your £25.00.

Do you pay for a pension, more from that £25.00.

At the end of the day, its dosen't matter what you charge per hour its what that figure is really worth when you take all of the deductables from it.

You say that £25.00 is a good amount to earn from an unskilled job, don't run yourself down, window cleaning is both dangerous and skilled and you should charge accordingly.

If you ask Mrs smith how much she pays a plumber-electrian-decorator just to turn up then you are charging a pittance for a skilled job.

If you want to earn £25.00 per hour net, then you need to start at this figure and then add on all of the other bits that you will spend to come to a gross figure to charge.

I agree with most of what you say William but I wouldn't classify most window cleaning as skilled.  There is certainly a knack to it and most people who start it don't have the resilience to sustain it over the long term.  If skill does come into it then I would suggest that it's more about cherry pickers, cradles and abseiling.  I know that even scaffolding was classed as semi skilled many years ago (though this may have changed).  I'm not doing myself down but although I feel that certain aspects of window cleaning could be classed at the high end of semi-skilled, I certainly do not classify myself as a skilled worker.  I charge what I do due to recouping my outlay, to cover the extra costs of just BEING self-employed (insurances, holiday, sickness, pension, re-investing and to cover the extra misc bits of downtime for when things go wrong.  I do like to end up with a good income once that lot is taken care of.  Of course tax and NI take a large chunk of the turnover too.

Window cleaning is skilled, anyone can climb a ladder or get into a cradle or tie a rope around your waist and dive off the nearest building, but its takes skill on how to do it safely.

Anyone can wash a piece of glass, but it takes a skilled person who can kept on washing panes and panes of glass, and each one is finshed perfectly.

Yes people can say your only a window cleaner, but how many of them can clean a window and leave it streak and spot free, time after time.

[simon knight]

Mr Groundhog and Mr NWH, Please believe me when i say I'm not being defensive and I appreciate that you have my best interests at heart. But I know what the market price is where I work and if I try to up my prices to the scale you're suggesting there's plenty of w/c ers around where i work who'll take my biz with lower quotes. Suffice to say my competition are not English!!!!!

I know I'm pricing right because I get turned down more and more these days.

As I say if you guys can charge what you charge then bloody good luck to you....but for me?...the competition is too stiff here.

I earn OK and me Liz (my daughter) and Mrs k don't starve and we pay our bills and have holidays....I work 6ish hours a day, maybe 3 on saturdays when I need to catch up....

....guys, Bless You for your comments but trust me I'm content.

And I'm very glad that you are happy too Simon.  I'm surprised to read that you regard that amount as the going rate in your area as you are in SW London.  I have to admit that to achieve the rates that I want to earn, I've had to travel a few miles out from where I live.  Money making isn't a huge motivator for me either.  I am more motivated by the thought of reducing my debts and by being able to have more time off eventually but money for its own sake is a non-starter with me.

There is little bit of a misconception re SW London. True, property prices are high vis a vis the national average but most of my customers who live in £1m plus houses (and they're not uncommon) have been there for many years and earn ish the national average or are retired and on a state pension. They're asset rich but disposable wealth poor.

[simon knight]

I hear you Groundhog but:  At £25ish ph I get all the work I want and have not too much fear of being undercut. Also at £25ph Mrs Smith is happy for me to have me back 6 or 7 times a year...at £50 it'd be 2 if I'm lucky.

But when all's said and done barring petrol £25 is net money...I might replace a scrim/rubber from time to time :

I haven't canvassed for 18 months as all of my new work is from Recs.

I never took up w/c ing to make a fortune...just a nice living being my own boss.

Simon

You say that you are happy with earning £25.00 per hour, which on it own looks like a good figure to earn.

But you are not earning £25.00 per hour, you say that apart from petrol you only pay for scrims/rubbers from time to time.

What happens if you have a holiday or day off, what if you are sick and can't earn, this comes off your £25.00.

You pay for petrol but what about the insurance-road tax-breakdowns and even replacing the vechicle when its worn out.

You buy shoes and work gear because of you job this also comes off your £25.00.

You might have public insurance, but you will have to pay Nat Insurance and Income Tax.

Every year you have to do your books for the tax man, you can either pay an accountant or spend xxx amount of hours doing them yourself, this also comes out of you £25.00, if you get them wrong and the tax man fines you then this also comes out of your £25.00.

Do you pay for a pension, more from that £25.00.

At the end of the day, its dosen't matter what you charge per hour its what that figure is really worth when you take all of the deductables from it.

You say that £25.00 is a good amount to earn from an unskilled job, don't run yourself down, window cleaning is both dangerous and skilled and you should charge accordingly.

If you ask Mrs smith how much she pays a plumber-electrian-decorator just to turn up then you are charging a pittance for a skilled job.

If you want to earn £25.00 per hour net, then you need to start at this figure and then add on all of the other bits that you will spend to come to a gross figure to charge.

I agree with most of what you say William but I wouldn't classify most window cleaning as skilled.  There is certainly a knack to it and most people who start it don't have the resilience to sustain it over the long term.  If skill does come into it then I would suggest that it's more about cherry pickers, cradles and abseiling.  I know that even scaffolding was classed as semi skilled many years ago (though this may have changed).  I'm not doing myself down but although I feel that certain aspects of window cleaning could be classed at the high end of semi-skilled, I certainly do not classify myself as a skilled worker.  I charge what I do due to recouping my outlay, to cover the extra costs of just BEING self-employed (insurances, holiday, sickness, pension, re-investing and to cover the extra misc bits of downtime for when things go wrong.  I do like to end up with a good income once that lot is taken care of.  Of course tax and NI take a large chunk of the turnover too.

Window cleaning is skilled, anyone can climb a ladder or get into a cradle or tie a rope around your waist and dive off the nearest building, but its takes skill on how to do it safely.

Anyone can wash a piece of glass, but it takes a skilled person who can kept on washing panes and panes of glass, and each one is finshed perfectly.

Yes people can say your only a window cleaner, but how many of them can clean a window and leave it streak and spot free, time after time.

[simon knight]

Oh Come on!...Sure there's a bit of a knack to it but my mum cleans her own windows and they look pretty ok to me.

[supernova77]

It looks like some of us view Window Cleaning as our business... And others just view it as a job 

Andy


What's the difference?

Urm - Quite a lot actually!

Andy

[simon knight]

It looks like some of us view Window Cleaning as our business... And others just view it as a job 

Andy


What's the difference?

Urm - Quite a lot actually!

Andy

Well? So what is the difference?

[NWH]

Hello Paul,du wanna job LOL.

[NWH]

Oh and just to add to that,you pay peanuts you get monkeys.I only realised this because everytime we had are lunch all they had in there lunch boxes were bananas LOL.

[mark dew]

I've picked up a couple in a village near me because someone was pricing too high.
They're good jobs too.
The last window cleaner doesn't know he's dumped yet, but he was charging so much they asked me for a quote.
He wanted £30-odd for what I asked £20.
I see it as 20-25 mins work, so I've got a really good price.
It's going to lead to others too.
Don't know if it's a cleaner I know, but I don't feel any guilt when they were ripping people off.
You can't price too high, people will look elsewhere.

£20 is a good price for 20 - 25 minutes work. Anywhere, anyplace. Does this include your travelling time?
But what would you do if you pick up 40 or 50 new jobs in the countryside at £10 cheaper than the previous cleaner?
I reckon you would come to the conclusion after half a dozen jobs that you are too cheap for the area.
I stopped working in town and do villages exclusively because the prices are basically half in town to what they are in the country.
I didn't set these prices, they were already in place long before i started wc.
I only learnt because like you, i was much cheaper than the previous wc's they had. I never found this out until much later, after i had developed a relationship with them.
I charge alot more now, though still not as much as some and i still pick up most jobs i quote.
I believe you are charging a fair rate in your eyes, but these rates are probably based alot on what you could charge in town, rather than the countryside.
It's all about location.

And simon knight, i think you are a trad cleaner, are you? If so, then your prices are good. If you are wfp though, i would expect to be earning almost double that in London.
There are much poorer areas where wc are earning better money per hour than £25.

[mark dew]

What a great thread this has developed into.

[simon knight]

Mark, I think you've clarified the situation.

Yes I am trad. Were I wfp then a job that takes me 1hr and I charge £25 would become 1/2 hr...still£25...onto the next 1/2hr job...again £25 ..thus 1hrs work = £50....

...I think this is where the confusion lay.

By the way what happened to Pauls posting?

[NWH]

You MUST take into account that if you go to work tomorrow and earn for example £50 and then get rained off on tuesday that £50 then becomes £25 and so on,all these factors have to be taken into account without holidays,sick days,let down by equipment,van problems all these things happen and must be thought about at the quote stage on all jobs.If you want to earn £25 an hour simon then price your jobs so your getting more like £40 an hour that way your more likley to end up with your £25.

[simon knight]

You MUST take into account that if you go to work tomorrow and earn for example £50 and then get rained off on tuesday that £50 then becomes £25 and so on,all these factors have to be taken into account without holidays,sick days,let down by equipment,van problems all these things happen and must be thought about at the quote stage on all jobs.If you want to earn £25 an hour simon then price your jobs so your getting more like £40 an hour that way your more likley to end up with your £25.

I can see where you're coming from but being rained off, car breaking down etc isn't the customers concern. All my customers are interested in is me coming round on a dry day, cleaning their windows to a good standard and charging realistic money.  I can't say: I'm going to charge you £40 because it might rain tomorrow and I won't be able to work. All jobs have inherent problems. With window cleaning it's inclement weather and vans or cars breaking down....equipment isn't an issue with trad obviously.

[NWH]

Well that`s exactly what i say if a price would ever be questioned,what do you think these other companys do when they price up jobs,they have to take into account the running costs of there vehicles and general running costs.Just saying what you want an hour without taking these things into account is very bad business and if you had a lot of overheads with this way of thinking you would go bankrupt in no time at all,no offense simon but wake up and smell the coffee.