[steve k]

Just posted this on another thread but it is relevant here:

why does anyone have a problem with peoples salary...the only reason we do this is the money...surely!!!
The other advantages of being self employed can be found in many other ways which are not weather dependant, not as physically tiring, not as many overheads, not as boring etc etc....

If I was working in ANY job and I heard a friend say they were earning 50% less than me with another employee for doing the same job, then the first thing I would say is:
"you need to have a word mate, I`m earning double that with Bloggs Engineering"

There is no difference here. If I read about someone earning £10 an hour, I will try and offer advice to try and motivate that person to aim a lot higher...

Why not shout it from the rooftops...be proud...declare your income to the authorities and you can tell the world if you want to.
If it motivates a "wannabee" (that is exactly what you were when you "wanted to be" to be a window cleaner) to change their job and earn more for their family then great...that`s what it did for me.

If you do not believe the figures on here about earnings I can only assume you are earning below that.
You shouldn`t knock the people who have looked at what they do, decided to earn what they feel they are worth and got out there and found the high paying customers...it can be done.
No-one needs to be worried in our lifetimes about people saturating the market...you will never escape the stigma attached to most peoples conception of a window cleaner...low paid, low skilled menial job done by ex.cons, unemployables anywhere else, beer money etc etc.
There are millions of uncleaned windows out there and nowhere near enough window cleaners.
If you work long days in window cleaning, you should be RICH because your hourly rate (including travel) should be and CAN BE £20 plus an hour...every hour.

window cleaning is a boring task
window cleaning is looked down upon by many people including our friends and family
window cleaning is EASY to learn...even trad...it is low skilled
window cleaning can be cold, you can be wet.
window cleaning can be dangerous

The other benefits about being self employed and working outdoors can be found in many other easier ways if you are happy with low wages.

so why on earth would we do this if we could only earn a normal wage...why not go and work in your spare bedroom buying and selling on ebay, stuffing envelopes or get a normal, indoor, safe job with paid holidays, pension, regular income.

The only reason is the HIGH earnings achievable in this game.

It is about having the confidence to change YOUR opinion about what you should be earning.
Its about raising your self esteem and walking away from anything or anyone that trys to lower it...including customers with THEIR opinion about what you are worth.

I don`t think anyone lies about their earnings on here...what could they possibly gain?
What I still cannot believe is why there is such negativity about peoples success...this is really  such a "British" thing...the British love the struggling underdog and for some reason begrudge people who get up and do something to improve their lot.

Why is there ANYTHING wrong with dropping kids off at school and picking them up, working between 9am and 3pm...bringing home £150 plus a day and having a lot of spare time to enjoy other hobbies or spend that time with your family...TELL ME!!

It is normal life It is nothing special so why is it not believed

If the wife is earning and enjoying her lot in life as well, then sounds great to me...how can it not sound great to anyone else???

[Davew]

There are some brilliant threads on here especially when you search through the old posts of the person. It dosen't take long to suss them out. :

[pylofm]

Steve...in the past I have not agreed with some of your statements but this time...I fully agree with you....great post.

[Davew]

I agree with most of Steves post, but people do lie about their earnings. I'm a strong believer  that the ones with money tend to keep it to themselves and would have no need to tell the world. I also agree that most peoples perception of the trade are exactly how he descibes it, which in some ways is fine by me because at the end of the day I'm having the laugh on many customers by taking their money for such a menial job that they could do themselves if they could be bothered. When I was in the print trade I was the laughing stock of my workmates when I told them what I intended to do. When their jobs come to an end (soon I believe) and they sign for the dole the tables could be turned.

[groundhog]

There may be millions of uncleaned windows out there, but there are also thousands of unskilled Eastern Europeans coming over here everyday who would think they were rich if they could earn £10 an hour!!  
People look down on window cleaners because they think they are low paid unskilled workers, I for one am quite happy for them to continue to believe that! because it means less competition for us and our prices can remain high, if there is a sudden influx of workers eg Eastern Europeans taking up this business then ultimately we will become unskilled low paid workers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This forum should be used for advice on the practicalities of the job and generall running of the business, not boasting about high earnings!!  It does none of us any good whatsoever

[Trevor Knight]

There may be millions of uncleaned windows out there, but there are also thousands of unskilled Eastern Europeans coming over here everyday who would think they were rich if they could earn £10 an hour!!  
People look down on window cleaners because they think they are low paid unskilled workers, I for one am quite happy for them to continue to believe that! because it means less competition for us and our prices can remain high, if there is a sudden influx of workers eg Eastern Europeans taking up this business then ultimately we will become unskilled low paid workers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This forum should be used for advice on the practicalities of the job and generall running of the business, not boasting about high earnings!!  It does none of us any good whatsoever

Very true, we don't even need to look as far afield as Europeans, there are plenty of people in this country who jump on the band wagon as this industry is seen as an easy money target.

[Paul Coleman]

OK so there is some bull on here but most of it seems true enough.  I went for 75% as that is probably the closest.
As for the earnings stuff I reckon around a grand a week turnover most weeks is very achievable for a WFPer who is a sole trader.  I don't do that myself but I reckon that spending some quality time building my business up more could see me there eventually.  I think the mistake some make is that they see numbers like that and think they can go straight to that sort of figure.  It can take a few years of sifting and filtering the work to achieve that.  A few might get to high earnings relatively quickly but I suspect they are the ones who would achieve that whatever they turned their hands to.
Also I think my general condition works against me sometimes and being 50 and unfit.  When I've stepped up the pace for a sustained period I can suffer physically so I prefer to plod.

[steve k]

and they do not last...they cannot price correctly, they get tired from many long and boring hours for a low wage in the cold...they find easier ways to earn money.
If it was so easy to jump on the bandwagon, why do we have any unemployment whatsoever?

No worries at all about saturation and lower earnings...it will not be a problem.

This forum cannot be just about how to do the job technically or it would be 1 page long...pricing is PARAMOUNT in ANY BUSINESS or we would all be working for nothing as volunteers...

DaveW...not sure if you are referring to my past posts??? if you are, then read them all if you wish...you will not find anything to suss out about me

[groundhog]

How can you be so sure that saturation and low earnings are not going to be a problem? If enough people come into this business who think that £5 - £10 is good money then of course prices are going to go down, its common sense!! Its happening already, just last week there was a job ad in my local paper looking for window cleaners to work a 45hour week for 15k a year, it doesn't take a genius to work out he is looking at employing Eastern Europeans!

[JohnL]

75%

I think the advice and support given by others on this site ( and others ) is invaluable.

Without these sites I am sure many of us would still be floundering about in their buckets of GG3/Fairey Liquid and I am extremely grateful for all the lessons learnt on here.

The information re materials and equipment is also an invaluable area of the advice posted and shared here and I can see no other area where this info' is available nationwide.

Regarding the times taken to do a job and the prices  . . . HAH! . . The Prices  HAH! . .  What a laugh some of those are!   

 -  and with regards to prices I really do wish people would stop and think before posting because it not only influences some in the wrong direction but could be a cause of some packing up if they think they are underachieving because the main reason for setting the correct price and using the correct equipment for a job for each the individual is ALL DOWN TO THE AREA YOU WORK IN! I am not advocating cheap prices, I am advocating the correct price for the patch you work in. Get that right and you are into a successful business.

Thanks for all those who make this ( and other sites ) a great place to visit!

[Londoner]

You don't have to look as far as the Eastern Europeans. Look at all the good workers being thrown out of work in this country for a multiple number of reasons. Mostly to do with traditional industries being sourced abroad.
My friend Phil drives a lorry for a stock holding company. He delivers raw materials to big and small engineering companies all over the South of England. So many of these engineering companies have closed down in the past couple of years that Phil's job is now looking dodgy.

Its happening all over, The employment market is going to change out of all proportion in the next ten years and its the skilled jobs that are going. I don't blame people for looking at starting up window cleaning but they should understand clearly what they are getting into. Shiner is right, it takes time to build up a good solid business.

[Davew]

SteveK no havn't looked at yours! I think you know the ones I mean.

[Davew]

I'm very much a newbie here and although I can make a living I'm a long way from making a good living. My pricing is ok but my customer base is not there yet. The only way to make good money for me would be with a more compact round with some high paying commercial work thrown in and a full round at that. The guys that are established and can do a whole street at a time are the lucky ones with good earning potential. As for the fact and fiction question - who knows?

[steve k]

How can you be so sure that saturation and low earnings are not going to be a problem? If enough people come into this business who think that £5 - £10 is good money then of course prices are going to go down, its common sense!! Its happening already, just last week there was a job ad in my local paper looking for window cleaners to work a 45hour week for 15k a year, it doesn't take a genius to work out he is looking at employing Eastern Europeans!

that sounds like a commercial vacancy...and many English would jump at £15k per annum...
if you have an established round of loyal customers who you do a good job for...then 99% would not dump you just because a stranger with broken english knocked on their door and offered to clean their windows for £5.00...if you think your whole round would dump you...start canvassing a new area...but they wont

I bet you are still working the same in 12 months

[xxmattyxx]

75%

I think the advice and support given by others on this site ( and others ) is invaluable.

Without these sites I am sure many of us would still be floundering about in their buckets of GG3/Fairey Liquid and I am extremely grateful for all the lessons learnt on here.

OMG.

That is so judgemental.

Although I like to think I don't 'flounder' I am one of those who uses a bucket, a squeegee and a mop.

For your information, theres nothing wrong with that, although you obviously think those that do still live in the dark ages.

[Dean Aspects]

75%

I think the advice and support given by others on this site ( and others ) is invaluable.

Without these sites I am sure many of us would still be floundering about in their buckets of GG3/Fairey Liquid and I am extremely grateful for all the lessons learnt on here.

OMG.

That is so judgemental.

Although I like to think I don't 'flounder' I am one of those who uses a bucket, a squeegee and a mop.

For your information, theres nothing wrong with that, although you obviously think those that do still live in the dark ages.

Their is sometimes a snobbery and a general looking down the noses attitude by some but not all wfp w/cs towards trad
most of us started trad and although i am wfp i also still do a bit of trad as on some jobs it is quicker and on others i just prefer it
they are all tools to help make the job easier

[Highrise]

I know of a bloke who only employes euorpeans to do his work and pays them min wage.... Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks... It's a bit like the building game, you got a lots of europeans working in the game for less money and soon they could build you a wall or a house for less money when they start on their own. It's already started in this game, I just hope that it wont be to long that you need to have a licence to be a window cleaner....

[JohnL]

xxmattyxx and Aspects . . . sorry but you have the wrong end of the point. 

My post was not intended to upset the wfp trad situation in any way - so my apologies if it did.

I use trad as well as wfp so I am NOT downgrading the trad system, I am trying to explain that without the use of these sites many of us would be unaware of alternative materials and working practices and methods.

There is a wealth of knowledge and materials to help and improve the lot of window cleaners and without these sites I would have been unaware of them. Take for instance the Procurve system. I saw it here, bought it and use it a lot and without this site I would still be totally unaware of it.

That is typical of the value of these sites.

[matt]

How can you be so sure that saturation and low earnings are not going to be a problem? If enough people come into this business who think that £5 - £10 is good money then of course prices are going to go down, its common sense!! Its happening already, just last week there was a job ad in my local paper looking for window cleaners to work a 45hour week for 15k a year, it doesn't take a genius to work out he is looking at employing Eastern Europeans!

if you have an established round of loyal customers who you do a good job for...then 99% would not dump you just because a stranger with broken english knocked on their door and offered to clean their windows for £5.00...if you think your whole round would dump you...start canvassing a new area...but they wont

I bet you are still working the same in 12 months

Steve i normally agree with most of your posts

BUt the above qoute i disagree with, the Eastern europeans will come and work for 7 quid a hour and think its great, look at the building game, brits dont get a look in these days, i know 3 chippies in my area, they were living the high life only 2 years ago, now they struggle to fill a full week, i clean the windows for a "general builder" he's a nice bloke if he is at home, i allways get a cuppa, he qouted 400 quid to lay a patio for 1 of my customers, she then phoned a advert in the local paper ( no job too small etc etc ) she got the work done for 150 quid, he was polish and spent 3 days doing it, did a ok job aswell, not 100 % great, but acceptable ( for the record she supplied the materials )

i also think a fair few lie on here just to make themselves look big, we have guys who start up and in a few months have enough work to earn 250 a day

we have youngsters on here who talk the talk and think they are biusinessmen of the year, yea i drive a new van, have a BMW , live in a 5 bed house and own a yacht in the south of france, oh they have been cleaning for 18 months and earn 3 K a week
in reality they live at home with mummy and daddy and drive a clapped out escort van and earn enough for a few shandies at the weekend

sure some are earning good money, but the forums are a strange place, the people who come on here nad brag that they earn the silly money figures and just on here to make themselves feel specail

[mark dew]

I read every post as though they were true.
I don't see the point of lying about things. The truth is much more interesting anyway.
Regarding prices, i'm not convinced that many non cleaners read the forums and go out and buy a ladder on the strength of it. (Unless they are serious).
Do you really think this is of any interest to someone outside the trade who is looking for a good read??
C'mon, cleaning is as dull a subject as you can get if you ain't involved in it.  :
There's very good money in everything, for the person prepared to put the effort in.
Window cleaning is hard work.