[russ_clark]

What is the answer then Poleman 

[poleman]

Your guess is as good as mine

Andy

[DASERVICES]

Does licencing work in Scotland!!!

A big fat NO

So why would it work in England!

Andy
PS and being the founder member of APWC I know must of the industry leaders are of the same view point 

To make it work you need to get involved, no good shouting from the sidelines it needs everyones support then others will follow.

My opion and others on the committee is take licensing away from the Council and have it controlled by a governing body. Window cleaners are not only the ones in the same boat, other trades have tried and have failed.

The SWLCN may fail as well, but if we can get public support then it wil be worth the fight. But we have done more in this past year than any other trade organistion, why because we have all stuck together in resolving this problem.

It's a lot of hard work but I feel it is winable. Then it will drag our industry forwards instead of going backwards as it is now. As the saying goes action speaks louder than words.

My advise go for it but cannot see any of the current organistions are strong enough to achieve it. But there is no harm in trying.

[dai]

What is the answer then Poleman  Huh

The answer to what? How many of us have actually lost work to so called cowboys.
I lost a couple of houses to two young lads, they work from a battered old escort car, and use ladders.
These guys are making the same mistake a lot of us made when we started. They are underpricing to get work. I wouldn't call them cowboys though, they are just a couple of young lads starting out in window cleaning.
Licensing can be detrimental as we are learning from the shellfish gathering industry.
I gathered kocklels for years and made good money doing it. If I want to do it now, I have to firstly travel over 120 miles to attend a foreshore awareness course. I can see that this is the result of the Morecambe Bay tragedy. I would then have to pay nearly £1000 for a license. I could probably teach the guy that runs the course, a hell of a lot more than he could teach me, I have been fishing our local beach nearly 60 years. They say that are only going to issue 50 licenses so I may not even get one.
We are all over regulated as it is. We have lost more of our rights in the last 30 years than in any time in history. Dai

[DASERVICES]

These are my thoughts and findings so far doing work with the SLWCN and why I think licensing is a good thing if run correctly.

Problems with our Industry :-

Many do window cleaning as a job not as a business, why because in a lot of areas pricing is way too low. Why because they keep them low afraid that Joe Bloggs aroung the corner will undercut him.

Why would Joe Bloggs come around and undercut him and make a living out of window cleaning at so low prices. Because 9 times out of 10 that person will be using window cleaning as a undelcared second income. These guys are costing our Industry millions and we will also be paying for their taxes. You now have the influx of migrants who themselves are now flooding the market with cheep labour. The Inland revenue will not even know they are working so they will not be paying taxes etc.. like we do.

We also have so called window cleaning companies who pay their workers pitance but they have to meet a set target each day sometimes at risk. These companies break all rules with regards to employment.

These I feel are the two biggest contributors in holding our industry back, so how can this be fixed.

The only option I see is if everyone is licensed, why beacuse everyone will have the same set of standards and therefore would be more than unlikely to undercut someone in the domestic market. This would also create a shortage of window cleaners which would then see prices go up, you then would be able to pay a decent wage to your employees.

But as we all know in Scotland it works in some areas and others it does not. The biggest problems is the people in the Council have no responsibility so hence they turn a deaf ear to problems. This however is changing as the SLWCN have gone to the top.

Ideally what we would like to see is a uniformed system that is not controlled by the Council and they have to meet targets. Instead of licensing by Council it should be licensed by County hence less burdensome to the trade. And last of all public knowledge and we are onto a winner. Yes you will be paying a fee but this will deter the ones who are dragging our Industry down.

Start looking forward not backwards.

If anyone knows of an alternative on how to raise our industry feel free to comment.

Cheers

Doug

[Londoner]

Today the smoking ban started in England. At about 2pm I went into a cafe to buy a takeaway coffee. Two blokes sitting smoking in the cafe. I said to the owner "thats not allowed any more" he shrugged his shoulders.

Without enforcement no regulations are worth the paper they are written on.

[DASERVICES]

Oops, my mistake Tam. Yes should have said licensed by constabulary area.

[Lakes and Pennine]

What trade body? well there are enough lads on this and other sites each day so we have a body already, a good body as you all care about the trade, its just a case of organisation. If we can arrainge a cleaning show to look at near identical poles why not arrainge something so we can all get in one mind and start lobbying MP's. After all we are from differnt parts of country, lots of MPS.

The health and saftey Iron is hot, lets iron some shirts.

[Paul Coleman]

If licensing comes in, I can see me being fleeced and bled dry.  I live on the borders of three counties and work in them all.  I even had an enquiry from a fourth but didn't get that job.

[stuart@skypole]

D.A Services.

Thats the way and i think that the org's, fed's etc need to join force to promote this and yes i agree that no doubt the will still be people that will ignor it must its then the employer ie property owners, home owners and company boss's that will pay the price.

The council / Police / government need to set the rules and your right maybe a governing body can inforce them.

People will adhear to the licence if they can be heavilly fined and thats what the council / police / gov are interested in!

oh and safety / quality

Now i understand the point of collecting cockels and now you need to pay £1000's to be trained and signed up.

Well most people knock ionics and the way they carry out there business BUT
Craig Mawlam has the right idea in the BWCA to train us all to be properly qualified now i know that some have been window cleaning for years but £100 or so to prove your qualified isnt really that expensive same witht he wfp boys

So we are allready slowly getting trained so why not pay a licence to protect our trade and incomes remember we could say pay £1000. to be licenced then subject to meeting criteria a smaller amount say £200 per year then re licence after say 5 years with your licence able to be removed for certain reasons

your thoughts
stuart

[stuart@skypole]

Another thought,

its not about those that trade from an old escort estate with ladders because most of us started that way

the difference is that we moved on re investing into our business's to attract more work, and a better income.

I know of a couple of companies as they like to be called ( i prefer to say cowboys)

they have sign written vans you know the type, a couple of guys per van and they work on a percentage of what they do now this leads to poor quality as there percentage is shockingly low not the guys fault!

They might have the minimum insurance or not ( im not saying) the guys are paid cash with the companies only showing the min wage befor tax has to be paid so thats illegal one has no licence to drive either there equipment is not maintained nor there vehicles they hide the majority of the earnings to keep under vat thus not paying tax properly and if they have accidently broken something on site/customers house they just drop the customer!

Insurance Ummmmhhh

but they have sign writen vans so they must be trading with in the law!

Now my point is simple not all window cleaners care about there proffesion which to me is a shame, because its a great industry where good money can be earned for those that wish

But it needs protecting

HHHHEEEEEELLLLLPPPP  us to protect our business and earnings

regards, Stuart

[Lakes and Pennine]

Well looks like a lot are in agreement. Yes you cant call the 40-60 quid a day lads cowboys, their prob glad to have a job but those who employ them do push them, worked for one myself 20 yrs ago £20 a day do as much as you can ect

As I said we are all  spread out over the country, write to MP. Does anybody have any contacts within the HSC?

I had contact with a few  mines inspectors in the past, but they hardly owe me any favours, more like the other way around, but they may be able to give some pointers.

Maybe the fed could be encouraged to tighten up and be a body to reckon with. All well and good geting good insurance rates through them when others just dont bother,

Any Fed officials on here got a voice?

[Trevor Knight]

I am not working with the FED, however, as most of you know I am involved with the Association of Professional Window Cleaners.

We have a meeting in the next few weeks and will discuss this with the committee. I will try and find out what avenues we need to go down regarding licence's etc and will happily report back our findings.

Regards,

Trevor

[DASERVICES]

What you guys need to do is jion an association that will run with it as they will need as many bodies behind. To sit on the sideline will have no impact.

Who ever takes this up will be spending a lot of time and will often not even get paid for the many hours/weeks/months that they will put in.

Not trying to sell any association but you will all have to band together like we have done up here in Scotland.

Then a huge detailed report which you have to look into the pros and cons of the licence needs to be published which you then take to whatever body you are going to approach. That's the only way it will work, talking direct or mailing people does not work. Send out detailed reports say several pages will get you noticed. This is how we have got this far where others have failed.

Just my opinion and findings its up to you guys to take it forward.

Doug

[Trevor Knight]

Hi Doug,

I totally agree with you that people need to get behind any organisation and help an association help them.

The trouble is people are always quick to ask for action but reluctant to join and put their money and support into action.

I believe the APWC to be a fresh approach and things will become clearer as time goes by regarding what we are trying to achieve.

As you mentioned, for any organisation to challenge this license and take it up on behalf of an industry would take vast amounts of money and time and backing. I myself have invested time and money into the new APWC and have no financial gain to be made from its fulfillment. However, what I am very serious about is taking it forward, challenging and promoting our industry standards and raising the profile of a window cleaner.

Its funny, people sit back and watch, ask for this and that, expect others to fund it and then when its all done want to join in! yet if because of lack of investment and support it doesn't happen they are quick to slate them??

Any new members are greatly appreciated and any support offered welcomed with open arms.

You all know how to get in touch with me??