[LTT Leathercare]

There is no way that our protector ever causes any form of coating on the surface other than an invisble one that inhibits oils and dirt from being absorbed. 
It cannot possibly form a plastic coating.  Maybe it was whatever had been used previously.
According to my records I have no evidence of you purchasing our leather protector or any other products. 

[*paul_moss]

Judy I bought it from you at the cleaning show in Birmingham, you may remember taking my email details to send me the information you talked about, but never did :

[LTT Leathercare]

As I spoke to hundreds of people at the show and have never met you before I'm afraid I cannot  recall the meeting and there is nothing on my show records.  What details were you looking for?

[*paul_moss]

 None, I dont need anything from you as it was you who was chomping at the bit for my details which you wrote in your book.
You must have used invisible ink 

[Ben Staerck]

A few things.

A conditioner can actually be more expensive to make. You have to create an emulsion, which requires it being made in a reactor.

As Paul said your protector can form a plastic like film. That is because it is just a flouro polymer dilued down with water. No chemical reation is needed to make the product, just mix it in a barrell.

Not only that, but flouro polymers are only about £6 KG and can be thinned down up to four times. It is a lot cheaper to make, not more expensive.

Judy, if I wanted to make a protector like yours it wouldn't be a problem, I just don't think its half as good as Furniture Clinics.

You have continually said that your protector is the best on the market, in this post and on may other occasions. And I have asked you many times for proof......but never have you showed it. Please Judy, present us with your test reports prooving yours is the best.

I have had my protector professionally and independantly tested. This also showed that a conditoner/protector does not damage leather in anyway.........yet you still tell people it does.

Do everyone a favour and just advise on what you know, stop slagging off your competition and focus on improving your own products!

[*paul_moss]

Its kicked off again  :

Judy is it full moon time again 

[LTT Leathercare]

There are many types of fluro products.  We use a fluoro carbonated product rather than a fluoro polymer which is the cheap version that will cause the plastic coating effect.  A fluoro carbonated product is created using other elements including a small amount of polymer but does not form a plastic coating.  It was specifically developed as an alternative to these plastic coating products.

I am not a chemist and do not pretend to be but rely on the lab that produces these products for us to do the research: We specialise in product use.

We have many samples of products they produce in research to ensure that our products perform as well as they can and remain cost effective.

We have spoken to 2 independent chemists (not related to our product production) and they have said that some fluoro chemicals can cost up to £50+ per kilo and would be very difficult to replicate outside a fully equipped laboratory.

I have never said that your product damages leather only that conditioners may damage leather due to their contents.

In our opinion/experience independent testing will very rarely be comparative but will only test whether it is safe to use on leather of various types and can rarely indicate usage over a period of time or under household conditions.

[Ben Staerck]

Just pour your protector onto a dish and let it dry.......you will see that it creates a plastic coating, thus proving that it is polymeric.

[*paul_moss]

Just pour your protector onto a dish and let it dry.......you will see that it creates a plastic coating, thus proving that it is polymeric.

Ben thats exactly what I did to test it before use ( great minds and all that)and found it to leave a surface film when dry which had a plastic feel and look to it.

Just back to protectors, on my tests I found both LTT and Furniture Clinics good, but Furniture clinics was thicker and had a better leather type odour. Ref price 5 ltrs off Funiture Clininc is around £50 LTT is around £90, big difference.

[LTT Leathercare]

Sorry for the delay in replying to this but I asked Andy to conduct some workshop tests under our strictly controlled conditions and supply his opinions, which are as follows.

"Now that things are getting practical I thought I would have a go.  I haven't tried this 'plate test' before for 'polymeric action' so I thought we should do it ourselves.  To make any reasonable assessment it had to be comparative so I used several different conditioners/protectors, poured small puddles onto a plate and allowed to dry (24hours) I wasn't happy using the speed drying process.  I am not sure what the results were supposed to prove but I think it was more coagulation or congealing that was going on than 'polymeric' action  which I believe is more to do with combining polymers or creating molecular chains!!!!! and is not something I would expect to see or assess so not proving very much at all.

Anyway as the plate did not simulate leather to any degree I decided to go a bit further and do the same experiment with pigment coated leather.  Puddle of product, allow to dry for 24-36hours, examine.  I was very happy with how our product performed, well adhered to the surface, no cracking, crazing, or flaking when flexed (although it eventually gave way under severe stress).  I won't comment here on the other products for professional reasons but I do not feel the need for any immediate improvements to our product.  Again the test is not indicitive of any real performance.  We recommend that our product is applied in a thin layer, the quantity of products tested must have been 100x the thickness of that and took 36 hours to dry completely, but there may be some correlations to performance.

The test is easy enough for any of you to try for yourselves and make your own mind up.

I also note that Paul is making a direct price comparison between LTT and FC and also that FC product is thicker  and therefore that this must make it better.
We used to use a thicker product but have found that making a thin protector it is more effective at protection (by comparitive testing), covers 30-50% more area ( by applying to suites and measuring quantities), 30-50% quicker to apply (by timing application) and less effort (by assessing how much my arm ached!!).
If 100ml* is required for the average suite cost difference is 80p (not as dramatic as £50/£90) and then compute all the above into the equation, we won't be thickening up our product any time soon.

*Quantity can be anything from 50 - 200ml depending on size of furniture and leather absorbency."

Thanks to Andy for doing this for me.

Regards
Judy

[*paul_moss]

Its nice to stretch the experts 

[Phil Marlor]

Been using Furniture Clinc cleaner just lately but I always go back to microsplitters when cleaning Leather, but I would never try to clean anything I'm not sure about with this.

Judy/Ben, you must have done a test by now with Microsplitters and neither of you have ever said it does any damage to the finish, I'm sure if your findings had been negative you would have posted them on here by now.

Just a thought.

Phil

[Mike Roper]

What is this all about ? Is there any need for it? Check out the products available and decide for yourself and stop this childish nonsense that has developed. I cannot see where people get off with all this digging and nastiness- lifes too short.
Mike

[Neil Grainger]

Not me, I just asked about Prochems Cleaners.

[carpet_care]

I used to use microsplitters on leather great results but just found them a bit too abrasive on some leathers especially where there where grease marks.

  and i am talking about pigmented leathers here not analine so now stick with purpose designed leather cleaners same results without the worry.


 Regards Andy Locke/  Melling carpet care.

[Glynn]

Why on earth doesn't Judy & Ben actually try MS on leather, at least just to see for themselves how good it works ?.
And then when they are at the very least convinced that it probably outperforms what they sell (imo) get it tested & approved.

WHY NOT ....

This is 2007 isn't it ?

[Mike Halliday]

obvious really : if they approve M/S than the sale of there products goes down, it'll be shooting themselves in the foot.

why approve some thing they don't make or sell

Mike

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Must admit that the creams for cleaning leather don't look as harsh as MS but when it comes to getting the black from the grooves MS and others saves time and elbow grease.

Shaun

[LTT Leathercare]

We have tested microsplitters and have previously discussed the results.  We have found them not to be as effective as the leather cleaners, they are liquids rather than foams which can cause problems and the long term effects have not been tested.  They can be as has been said too abrasive on some finishes and I am sure that the manufacturers of microsplitters would not be able to help with any problems that may occur, far safer to stick to well tested specific products.  Microsplitters have been tested by the factory that produces our products and they have found no benefit, if there was they would produce one.

Shaun - a leather cleaner should not be a cream as this will not produce good results as the residues need cleaning off when you have done your cleaning which means a double job, far better to do it in one go.  Most cream cleaners just move the dirt around.

[Glynn]

How can you claim "not as effective" when they are clearly more effective ?.
Or have you simply not tried it ?

imo