[DASERVICES]

The last story I heard was the EC was taking the HSE to court over the work at height regulations, does anyone know the outcome of this or will the work at height regulations still be unclear for some time.

It's a bit embarrassing when you hear this information from the associations, you then tell your customers and nothing happens. A bit like when I went on the BWCA course and Craig let slip that all companies would have to use wfp, nothing on that as well.

I had to back up a w/c who I do not know as his ex customer I was talking to thinks it's a load of rubbish what his ex window cleaner told him. The whole street are also going to ditch him which is a shame as this w/c will have invested his money in wfp but is being let down by the HSE that no clear guidelines have been set. To end it all he gave me work to clean his fascia, with wfp He even asked me to clean his windows 

Does anyone know any info yet.

Cheers

[Moderator David@stives]

Doug

I will contact Wayne Voller our health and safety officer on Monday to see if he has heard anything.

Dave

[DASERVICES]

Cheers Dave,

When you hear things like that you hope it's the truth so when you are informing your customers you will have back up in the future. Do you have any links or documents related to this which we can show our customers.

Thanks

Doug

[Clive McDonald]

Your registration scheme is very good. It must have taken years of lobbying and explaining, and organising. Not least of which you probably had to let local councils and trading standards think it was their idea in the first place.
Congratulations that your roll out is begining to take effect.
That's the good news.

As to what you are talking about above, terrifying people into using WFP window cleaners because it is illegal to do otherwise and in the event of an accident they could be liable and get sued is very wrong.
Your members including yourself should sell WFP on the basis that it does a better job, and only as a supplementary point, not the main one, mention that it has H&S advantages.
These scare tactics are obviously backfiring, stop it.

[Moderator David@stives]

Doug

Hows that for service



European court supports UK safety laws
(Case C127-05 European Commission v United Kingdom)
Today the European Court of Justice (ECJ) upheld one of the key elements of British health and safety law – the use of the key phrase "so far as is reasonably practicable".

Speaking at the Yorkshire Branch of the Institute of Occupational Safety and Health, Bill Callaghan, Chair of the Health and Safety Commission (HSC) welcomed this decision.  Mr Callaghan said:

"I am pleased by this outcome.  The Court has rejected the European Commission’s claim that the use of "so far as is reasonably practicable" does not implement the Framework Directive. Quite clearly we have been effective in protecting people as currently we have the best occupational safety record in Europe."

"We continue to believe that the right way forward is a proportionate and risk-based approach protecting employees and others effectively, whilst allowing commonsense to be applied when deciding on what protective measures to adopt."

The European Commission challenged the use of the phrase because the directive, which lays down EU employers’ duties to protect the health and safety of their workers, has no such qualification. The UK robustly defended the case and today the ECJ dismissed the European Commission’s case and ordered it to pay the UK Government’s costs


http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2007/c07007.htm

[DASERVICES]

Thanks for that Dave so no change to the rules then, how then do we or some organisation promote wfp !!! We need to get the public to accept that wfp is one of the tools of the trade and they should not expect window cleaners to take risks when cleaning their windows.

One to think about.

[Neil Williams]

how then do we or some organisation promote wfp !!!

It is safer
Less obstrusive
More eco friendly
Clean lasts longer

[Paul Coleman]

how then do we or some organisation promote wfp !!!

It is safer
Less obstrusive
More eco friendly
Clean lasts longer

I've always been reluctant to mention your last point Neil.  Some customers already try to reduce the frequency of the service so I prefer not to encourage any more of that.

[Clive McDonald]

Agreed. Leave scare physcology alone. The general public doesn't need another layer of know alls pontificating about regulations, directives and what they should and shouldn't do.

Responsible bodies that represent window cleaners should be just that.

[Pat Purcell]

Shouldn't this be seen as a victory of sorts for window cleaners, where they are allowed to make their own assessment of a situation and do what their experience tells them is the best way to go about the job rather than a blanket regulation that doesnt allow for anything other than WFP
From reading a lot of posts on here and elsewhere it would appear that wfpers make up about 10-15% of window cleaners and the 100% wfpers even less so while wfp is a perfectly acceptable way to wash windows the fact that there is not a law the makes any alternative all but illegal is probably a good thing

[Ian_Giles]

I personally never blag on about H & S issues

Your members including yourself should sell WFP on the basis that it does a better job, and only as a supplementary point, not the main one, mention that it has H&S advantages.
These scare tactics are obviously backfiring, stop it.

The above quote describes perfectly my own approach when being asked about WFP by customers or potential customers.
I think that the fact that you are able to give a deeper and more thorough clean (please note I don't say 'better') is one of it's best selling points, frames, doors, cladding and so on.
I'll outline the general approach to H & S, usually quoting the line that, 'If there is a reasonable and practical alternative to using ladders, that method should be used'. (I don't say 'must be used')

Right or wrong, that is my own method.

Ian

[Moderator David@stives]

Rainwater eco

We do not give advice about what method to use, also we do not inform the public about the reasons to use wfp.

I dont know where you got your mis-information from.

[williamx]

If customers ask why I don't use ladders, I say that with wfp, if I trip and fall over I might break a wrist or ankle and the pole might damage a car or some part of the house which I have full insurance cover for, but If I fell from a ladder, the chances are that I might die.

Now I like window cleaning but I would rather live a little longer than take the risk.

As with every other industry the world has known, at times more advance equipment is devised than can do the same job faster - safer - better or any other valid reason.

When such equipment or working practices are used, there are always the old die-hards who won't recognize its benefits and will slag off the new ideas.

Remember you are not only window cleaners. 

You are a business man/women, you are running a business, it might not be a global enterprise but it is still a business and the most important thing you have to do, is to make sure that you can make a profit.

So when new equipment or working practices arrive, and these might have a impact on your profit line, you either have to use them or have something in place to counteract them.

If you don't then you won't survive.

[Helen]

"so far as is reasonably practicable"....hmmmm
Still open to different interpretation then and really not moved us forward at all.
It was reasonably practicable to use the ladder, because my business does not have WFP (or alternative) ,although WFP (or alternative) is available for me to buy and I haven't bothered.
Is there a clear defination, which can clear this view point up?
We use both WFP and Trad methods.
As for educating the public, I think that everyone is responsble for educating the public, from Trade Org's, suppliers. Health and Safety Exec's and business owners.
If we are approached by someone who has suitable windows for WFP, then the whole thing is explained to them and they then have the option to say yes or no. We do not scaremainer people into using us, but we do explain the risks of ladderwork  and except for a few "i'll never change my mind, but I do want to stand here and argue with you" types, we have over the past few years re-educated our customers. some have been easy to accept it as they believe that we would not be harming our business by doing so and some have been not so easy, but with good practise and customer service to them (and loads of patience in some cases!!!!) we have got them to understand why we work like we do. New customers are much easier as normally they have heard/seen of WFP and readily accept thath the world of WC'ng has changed.

[Paul Coleman]

"so far as is reasonably practicable"....hmmmm
Still open to different interpretation then and really not moved us forward at all.
It was reasonably practicable to use the ladder, because my business does not have WFP (or alternative) ,although WFP (or alternative) is available for me to buy and I haven't bothered.
Is there a clear defination, which can clear this view point up?
We use both WFP and Trad methods.
As for educating the public, I think that everyone is responsble for educating the public, from Trade Org's, suppliers. Health and Safety Exec's and business owners.
If we are approached by someone who has suitable windows for WFP, then the whole thing is explained to them and they then have the option to say yes or no. We do not scaremainer people into using us, but we do explain the risks of ladderwork  and except for a few "i'll never change my mind, but I do want to stand here and argue with you" types, we have over the past few years re-educated our customers. some have been easy to accept it as they believe that we would not be harming our business by doing so and some have been not so easy, but with good practise and customer service to them (and loads of patience in some cases!!!!) we have got them to understand why we work like we do. New customers are much easier as normally they have heard/seen of WFP and readily accept thath the world of WC'ng has changed.

Yes it's much easier for new customers to accept WFP - especially if they see you working when they ask for the quote.
I have one customer who is OK with me doing upper floor work with the WFP but still tries to nudge me into using traditional methods for the ground floor (some of them are leaded).  I walked away once but resumed a few months later after bumping into her in the supermarket.  After that I thought the issue had died a death but on my last visit it resurfaced.  I had to be a bit more assertive.  I stated that I would be continuing to use WFP because it was quicker for me and I needed a return on my investment.  Hopefully that will be the last time we have that coversation.
N.B.  I do clean one glass door the traditional way as water seeps underneath it.  I'm happy to concede that occasionally WFP isn't too appropriate.

[williamx]

"so far as is reasonably practicable"....hmmmm
Still open to different interpretation then and really not moved us forward at all.
It was reasonably practicable to use the ladder, because my business does not have WFP (or alternative) ,although WFP (or alternative) is available for me to buy and I haven't bothered.
Is there a clear defination, which can clear this view point up?
We use both WFP and Trad methods.
As for educating the public, I think that everyone is responsble for educating the public, from Trade Org's, suppliers. Health and Safety Exec's and business owners.
If we are approached by someone who has suitable windows for WFP, then the whole thing is explained to them and they then have the option to say yes or no. We do not scaremainer people into using us, but we do explain the risks of ladderwork  and except for a few "i'll never change my mind, but I do want to stand here and argue with you" types, we have over the past few years re-educated our customers. some have been easy to accept it as they believe that we would not be harming our business by doing so and some have been not so easy, but with good practise and customer service to them (and loads of patience in some cases!!!!) we have got them to understand why we work like we do. New customers are much easier as normally they have heard/seen of WFP and readily accept thath the world of WC'ng has changed.

Yes it's much easier for new customers to accept WFP - especially if they see you working when they ask for the quote.
I have one customer who is OK with me doing upper floor work with the WFP but still tries to nudge me into using traditional methods for the ground floor (some of them are leaded).  I walked away once but resumed a few months later after bumping into her in the supermarket.  After that I thought the issue had died a death but on my last visit it resurfaced.  I had to be a bit more assertive.  I stated that I would be continuing to use WFP because it was quicker for me and I needed a return on my investment.  Hopefully that will be the last time we have that coversation.
N.B.  I do clean one glass door the traditional way as water seeps underneath it.  I'm happy to concede that occasionally WFP isn't too appropriate.

I had a customer telephone me for a quote, she couldn't get a window cleaner and had been trying for the last 3 years.

All of her windows are leaded, she has some windows that are over the kitchen roof, which she says is unstable and won't take my weight.

I explained that I ONLY use wfp, I told her that all the windows could be cleaned and I would charge her £25.00,  It should take me 30 minutes 1st clean and 2nd clean then about 20 minutes per clean.

She then asked if I could clean her bottom windows the old fashioned way.

No problem say I, that will now be £150 per clean because of the time its going to now take me.

She was a bit taken aback about the price until I pointed out that I am still cheaper than the plumber-electrician-TV repair man and her local garage.

[Clive McDonald]

There you go Dave;
It's a bit embarrassing when you hear this information from the associations, you then tell your customers and nothing happens. A bit like when I went on the BWCA course and Craig let slip that all companies would have to use wfp, nothing on that as well.

I had to back up a w/c who I do not know as his ex customer I was talking to thinks it's a load of rubbish what his ex window cleaner told him. The whole street are also going to ditch him which is a shame as this w/c will have invested his money in wfp but is being let down by the HSE that no clear guidelines have been set

I rest my case.

[Clive McDonald]

But to be more positive.
What about a national window cleaners week dave?

We say a lot on here but the feel good factor is never mentioned, some (mainly women) look forward to their windows being cleaned as much as a visit to the hairdressers. We provide a fantastic service and allow people to feel great about the homes they live in, let's celebrate this with a week of mutual appreciation?

It would get APWC on the telly and once again demonstrate that you lead the industry.

[Neil Williams]

reasonably practicable

Lawyer speak for let's make a load of money spending days/weeks in courts across the country argueing is it reasonably practicable or not when the inevitable accident happens.
FFs will someone from APWC or FED get onto HSE and ask for a definitive defination of what the words 'reasonably practicable' means.

[williamx]

reasonably practicable

Lawyer speak for let's make a load of money spending days/weeks in courts across the country argueing is it reasonably practicable or not when the inevitable accident happens.
FFs will someone from APWC or FED get onto HSE and ask for a definitive defination of what the words 'reasonably practicable' means.

Reasonably practical means that if no accidents happen then its a safe practice, but if you have an accident then that is very unreasonable and we will prosecute you