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Ian Rochester

  • Posts: 2588
Re: Franchising
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2007, 08:19:35 am »
Just had a look at their website and it looks like they are fitting your van out, sending you on a 2 day Ionics course (£195), giving you a copy of George (£50) and then sending you on your way.

Their total outlay will probably be around the £5K mark.

There is going to be no business incoming from website search engines as when you google it they say they only cover the Bristol and BS postcode areas.

I agree for the extra £10K you are spending, they should be providing a start up pack to get the income coming in straight away along with a website that presents a national coverage.

On the face of it this looks like a poorly thought out franchaise, but people are obviously buying in to it so there may be more to it than initially meets the eye.

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: Franchising
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2007, 01:05:13 pm »
Point of order!!

Suggesting "these people" are know-nothing's who are just out to make a fast buck is bordering on the slanderous.

Tom Farr (Stayclean Windows) has been in the trade for many years, and has enabled many people to own very profitable businesses who otherwise never had had the confidence to go it alone.

His business model really is a "tried and proven" system. 

Before slagging him off, why not ask him for contacts for his franchisees, and ask them what they think?

This new franchisee, instead of worrying about competition on his franchised area, should be talking to the franchisor and other established franchisees - that's what franchising is about.  They will tell him exactly how to deal with his misgivings - that's partly what his franchisee payment is for.

And before anyone starts suggesting I'm on the payroll, I've never met Tom, only spoken on the phone to him once and exchanged a few e-mails.

But I did research his set up before jumping to any conclusions about "rip-offs"

Cheers,

Ian

L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner

  • Posts: 822
Re: Franchising
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2007, 01:33:21 pm »




Fella`s and gals,is there any difference between say a Dyna-Rod,ServiceMaster,Chem-Dry,BurgerKing franchise and a
Window cleaning franchise set-up.Thats just to mention 4
Leading world wide franchise operations from drain cleaning
To carpet cleaning,to fast food chain.The royalties and monthly
Pay back arrangements to the carpet cleaning franchise companies
Are mind boggling in my view.For many years I was a carpet/
Upholstery cleaning contractor offering a full comprehensive
Service from in-works to onsite.3 of the local area ServiceMaster
Guys used to bring in their work.One was `sold` on the franchise
Set-up the other went `solo` and bought out.The other got himself
A milk round!!! Ian has his own franchisees,perhaps he could enlighten
Us more.I did mean to ask him about it at Blackpool at the recent
Trade show but did`nt get around to it.

Lewis  Doubtfire
L. Doubtfire
Window Cleaner

eddie d

Re: Franchising
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2007, 07:25:41 pm »
so what you saying vince .that all franchises are a waste of time .

people pay millions for franchises in all sorts of buisnesses look at macdonalds ,molly maids ,dhl,tax assist ,chips away ,and many more are all these people being ripped off .i dont think so .

or are you saying that wc isnt worthy and that its so simple anyone can do it .i dont think so ,
its just another buisness .if its so simple why arnt all wc on 50k pluss. the reason is they they dont have the knowhow ,or maybe confidence ,or buisness acumen .i
f you can buy into a franchise for 15k and after 1or2 years be on 50 k or so then i think thats not bad .
the difficulty is finding a decent franchisee.
i know someone who bought into a wc franchise and 18 months later has 3 vans out ,not bad hey .
 ;D

mark dew

  • Posts: 2901
Re: Franchising
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2007, 04:35:49 am »
so what you saying vince .that all franchises are a waste of time .

I must have missed that post. Did it get deleted?

or are you saying that wc isnt worthy and that its so simple anyone can do it .i dont think so ,

Isn't worthy?
I don't think he says that, or anything like that.
£15k does seem to be alot of money to pay for a van setup which doesn't include the van, training, software, and moral support.
I do agree that if you can buy into a franchise for 15k and turn it into 50k after 1 or 2 years, it will be money well spent.
But the point is, to achieve £50k or whatever will only be achieved through hard work. Work which will have to be done whether he spent 15k on a franchise or he sourced the offerings himself and saved 10k(??).
There is more support and information on the forums than any franchise can provide. For free.
If it was recognised by the public as a well known brand (macdonalds etc) then the name might be worth something, but i don't think domestic customers care or even want to be interested in anything other than their local wc doing a good job.
It might not be a rip off, but with all the info and links contained on this site i think it is extortionate.
Hats off to stayclean if they are selling these packages though.



Londoner

Re: Franchising
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2007, 07:04:10 am »
When you buy a franchise its the name you are buying not a business idea. A franchise is a licence to trade under another company's name because supposedly it is well known.
If its not well known why bother?

The answer to eddie d's question yesterday is a resounding yes. I do think that any window cleaning franchise is a total waste of time and money. Its just meaningless.

eddie d

Re: Franchising
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2007, 10:19:45 am »

i guess if you say its a waste of time and a load of rubbish it must be .

Londoner

Re: Franchising
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2007, 10:43:19 am »
Well, what do they do for you that you can't do for yourself?

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: Franchising
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2007, 10:49:11 am »
Everybody is looking at this from totally the wrong point of view.  Of  course no-one on here would consider buying a franchise, you're all successful, confident business people who have had the determination, talent and drive to achieve without any direct help (in most cases)

Take that line of thought a little further:  If it's so easy to set up on your own, why would anyone want to be employed as a window cleaner?  You go to work every day, produce a large amount of work and your employer gives you a pittance at the end of the week.  WHAT A RIP OFF!!!

Obviously not true, as if it were then there would be no employees, everyone would be self employed, in all trades, not just window cleaning.

The truth is that people such as yourselves are very lucky.  You have the personality and drive to know what you want, and to achieve it.

Not everyone is like you!

Most people would know what they want, very few would have the courage and self confidence to go it alone to achieve their goals.

One way people can achieve their goal is to buy a franchise.  You dissenters who have made it on your own are effectively saying:  "If you can't do what I've done on your own, you shouldn't be allowed to do it at all"

WHAT ARROGANCE!!

You assume that anyone who buys a franchise is incapable of deciding whether they are getting value for money, and that all franchisors are only interested in cheating their franchisees.

Jim Penman is an Australian millionaire who owns a worldwide franchised organisation called "Jim's Mowing".  He has close on three thousand  franchisees, all mowing grass.

MOWING GRASS??

WHAT A RIP-OFF!!!!

Any idiot can mow grass, therefore anyone who buys a "Jim's Mowing" franchise (or "Green thumb", or "Nice 'n' Stripy") is by definition an idiot.

If this were true, don't you think that by now someone would have called their bluff? Or reported them to Trading Standards or the Office of Fair Trading etc?

Exactly the same is true of window cleaning franchises.  People who buy them are not naive idiots throwing their money away, they are aspiring business people who feel more comfortable operating within an organisation which can demonstrate success.  Franchisors are not (for the most part) unscrupulous villains, they are successful business owners who are prepared to provide the benefit of their hard work, experience and expertise in exchange for a fair and MUTUALLY AGREED financial arrangement.

As you may have guessed (and Lewis Doubtfire mentioned) I am arguing from the point of view of a franchisor (albeit in a very modest  way).

My first franchisee was an accountant.  He reached his mid fifties and decided he hated his job, so packed it in and tried to make a living doing odd jobs, painting and decorating, gardening and a bit of window cleaing.   A few weeks later he realised he'd made a mistake, and that he wasn't able to build a viable customer base - in other words he was on the point of failure.

This wasn't through any lack of commitment, or effort, just lack of self confidence.

He saw my advert for a franchisee, came to see me, considered everything I was offering and decided it was well worth it.

That was in September last year.  By January he had a business with enough work to turn over £800 per week plus.  Did I turn him over?

He doesn't think so!!

My second franchisee was already a window cleaner, working for a well known local company doing exactly what I do, cleaning windows in the domestic market.

He went out every day and cleaned windows for householders, exactly as 90% or so of you do, except that he was paid a wage for doing it, and the lion's share went to his employer.  He decided he would be better off doing it for himself, but lacked the confidence to try to build his own business from scratch.  He came to me knowing exactly what he was getting into and willingly paid my fee, and continues to pay weekly royalties.

He has just completed his first four week round and already has business worth over five hundred pounds a week.

He would never have been able to achieve that on his own - he isn't the type.

Neither is my first franchisee.

But who are you people to think you have the right to deny them the opportunity I have provided?

Cheers,

Ian


russ_clark

  • Posts: 923
Re: Franchising
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2007, 11:18:06 am »
As always Ian a very well presented point of view.
I personally agree with you on this one.
It is not a rip-off at all
My business is in a situation where I am seriously considering
offering a franchise to the right person but I am sure I have not considered all options.
Any advice Ian would be greatly appreciated
Russ

dave0123

  • Posts: 3553
Re: Franchising
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2007, 12:03:28 pm »
Quote
Everybody is looking at this from totally the wrong point of view.  Of  course no-one on here would consider buying a franchise, you're all successful, confident business people who have had the determination, talent and drive to achieve without any direct help (in most cases)

Take that line of thought a little further:  If it's so easy to set up on your own, why would anyone want to be employed as a window cleaner?  You go to work every day, produce a large amount of work and your employer gives you a pittance at the end of the week.  WHAT A RIP OFF!!!

Obviously not true, as if it were then there would be no employees, everyone would be self employed, in all trades, not just window cleaning.

The truth is that people such as yourselves are very lucky.  You have the personality and drive to know what you want, and to achieve it.

Not everyone is like you!

Most people would know what they want, very few would have the courage and self confidence to go it alone to achieve their goals.

One way people can achieve their goal is to buy a franchise.  You dissenters who have made it on your own are effectively saying:  "If you can't do what I've done on your own, you shouldn't be allowed to do it at all"

WHAT ARROGANCE!!

You assume that anyone who buys a franchise is incapable of deciding whether they are getting value for money, and that all franchisors are only interested in cheating their franchisees.

Jim Penman is an Australian millionaire who owns a worldwide franchised organisation called "Jim's Mowing".  He has close on three thousand  franchisees, all mowing grass.

MOWING GRASS??

WHAT A RIP-OFF!!!!

Any idiot can mow grass, therefore anyone who buys a "Jim's Mowing" franchise (or "Green thumb", or "Nice 'n' Stripy") is by definition an idiot.

If this were true, don't you think that by now someone would have called their bluff? Or reported them to Trading Standards or the Office of Fair Trading etc?

Exactly the same is true of window cleaning franchises.  People who buy them are not naive idiots throwing their money away, they are aspiring business people who feel more comfortable operating within an organisation which can demonstrate success.  Franchisors are not (for the most part) unscrupulous villains, they are successful business owners who are prepared to provide the benefit of their hard work, experience and expertise in exchange for a fair and MUTUALLY AGREED financial arrangement.

As you may have guessed (and Lewis Doubtfire mentioned) I am arguing from the point of view of a franchisor (albeit in a very modest  way).

My first franchisee was an accountant.  He reached his mid fifties and decided he hated his job, so packed it in and tried to make a living doing odd jobs, painting and decorating, gardening and a bit of window cleaing.   A few weeks later he realised he'd made a mistake, and that he wasn't able to build a viable customer base - in other words he was on the point of failure.

This wasn't through any lack of commitment, or effort, just lack of self confidence.

He saw my advert for a franchisee, came to see me, considered everything I was offering and decided it was well worth it.

That was in September last year.  By January he had a business with enough work to turn over £800 per week plus.  Did I turn him over?

He doesn't think so!!

My second franchisee was already a window cleaner, working for a well known local company doing exactly what I do, cleaning windows in the domestic market.

He went out every day and cleaned windows for householders, exactly as 90% or so of you do, except that he was paid a wage for doing it, and the lion's share went to his employer.  He decided he would be better off doing it for himself, but lacked the confidence to try to build his own business from scratch.  He came to me knowing exactly what he was getting into and willingly paid my fee, and continues to pay weekly royalties.

He has just completed his first four week round and already has business worth over five hundred pounds a week.

He would never have been able to achieve that on his own - he isn't the type.

Neither is my first franchisee.

But who are you people to think you have the right to deny them the opportunity I have provided?

Cheers,

I do actully think its a good idea specially for middle aged men who have a family that couldnt start from scratch and earn nothing from day 1. i just thought 15.000 and then to buy a van and then start with no customers was quite alot of money.

if you dont mind me asking Ian do you provide any customers on yours?? just to help them start off? or all of the jobs or do they start from scratch as well?

Dave
Dave.

L.Doubtfire - The Blade Runner

  • Posts: 822
Re: Franchising
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2007, 12:24:24 pm »



I can only back up 100 percent on what Russ Clark said Ian.
I recon your last mail will put this `thread` to bed,if it dosn`t
I`ll be amazed.
L. Doubtfire
Window Cleaner

Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: Franchising
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2007, 04:39:49 pm »
Russ: you have e-mail

I do actully think its a good idea specially for middle aged men who have a family that couldnt start from scratch and earn nothing from day 1. i just thought 15.000 and then to buy a van and then start with no customers was quite alot of money.

if you dont mind me asking Ian do you provide any customers on yours?? just to help them start off? or all of the jobs or do they start from scratch as well?

Dave

Dave:

The answer is "yes - all jobs"

My "Unique Selling Point" is that I guarantee to provide all necessary work.

For this I charge a royalty fee somewhat larger than most other franchises.

This seems to me the more ethical way to do it, and justifies the money my franchisees must pay me.

In effect the net result is the same, I retain exclusive ownership of the customer database - the franchisee would be guilty of theft if he/she attempted to leave me and take my customers with him/her.

But the same is true of franchises where the franchisee has to accumulate his own customer base - it is still the property of the franchisor, the franchisee cannot just walk away and take the customers with him - if he could the franchise wouldn't last five minutes.  The franchisee can sell his franchise in both cases, and the customer base transfers to the new franchise owner, but if the franchisee simply wishes to terminate his agreement, the customer base reverts to the franchisor.

This obviously remains true in the case of jobs acquired by the franchisee subsequent to the provision of the initial customer base.

No franchisor could allow a franchisee to develop his own independant customer base!!

Cheers,

Ian

JohnL

  • Posts: 723
Re: Franchising
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2007, 08:09:39 pm »
Its quite easy to see the earlier dissenters are quite rightly horrified at the figures for the franchise setup.

But the comments re do they get your customers for you is a little lacking in the thought department. Did anyone ask that question of such franchises as for instance McDonalds?

All businesses are made up of a product/service and its up to the owner to market the business to the best of his/her ability to make the service and product highly visible.

A franchise is usually already an up front, visible company and isnt that what most WCers on this site say is the best way to get customers!
West Somerset. On the edge of the Quantocks and looking at The Exmoor National Park.