[richyvezy]

Hi

We have a girl that we took on just over 2 weeks ago now. Her performance has continued to be below par and below our high standard. We have repeatedly told her about this after receiving complaints from clients. Another cleaner who she doubles up with says that she is always having to clean up again behind her !!

We have now lost a client (I'm hoping to save it) mainly due to her so we have had enough. Our Statements of Employment state that each party has to give one weeks notice to terminate if they have worked for at least one month but not for anything less !!

Where do we stand legally to dismiss her instantly as we feel we are flogging a dead horse now.

Cheers

Richy

[PremierPDS]

Fire her. You can legally fire anyone within the first year of employment for any reason as long as it isn't contravening any other legislation such as equal opps or age etc. Did you make it clear from the start that she was on a trial? If you don't feel safe in firing her, call ACAS and they'll advise you.

Nickie x

[richyvezy]

Yes I made it clear that it was a trial basis. She hasn't signed anything yet. I was just unsure of her rights when it's less than 4 weeks of employment !! We've got other, more experienced people waiting in the wings and we have to act quickly.

It's a bank holiday so won't be able to get hold of ACAS until Tuesday.

Richy

[Dean Aspects]

i ve just had to deal with a similar situation and the man at acas was very helpful
keeps you on the right side of employment law

[PremierPDS]

Is it absolutely imperative that you get rid of her before Tuesday? If this was me, I'd get her work covered for her next shift and get her in for a meeting with you and tell her that she has been unsuccessful in her trial period and you are therefore forced to let her go. I always try to be nice about these things but firm. It could go either way- she may get mad or even cry and another thing you should bear in mind is that if she has any of your equipment or materials you should get these back before firing her as it will save you a lot of hassle in the long term if she turns nasty.

Nickie x

[Matthew Speakman]

an emplyee has no rights until they have worked for you for 12 months

[Dean Aspects]

an emplyee has no rights until they have worked for you for 12 months

that is basically what the man at ACAS said to me
time to get rid
you dont need the stress

[richyvezy]

I thought as much. Well thats good to hear. I'm going to hold off from being too impulsive and double check with ACAS tomorrow I think.

I must be honest and say that managing the domestic side of our business is so much harder and stressfull than managing our office/commercial side. Does everyone else feel the same ?
I think we'll be concentrating more on the office/commercial side from now on.

Cheers guys n'gals

Richy

[newbroom]

Posted by: Matthew Speakman  Posted on: May 05, 2007, 09:35:02 PM 
Insert Quote 
an employee has no rights until they have worked for you for 12 months 


This statement is not true, an employee accrues holiday pay from day 1 for starters.

Although the employee isnt entitled to claim unfair dismissal until they have 12 months employment under their belt, they can still claim constructive dismissal ( although sounds unlikely in this case )

[Fox]

This is such a mine field your best best is to contact the fedaration of small businesses or ACAS for advice.

An employee has every right to claim unfair dismissal within twelve months under certain circumstances - eg: racial, sexual, pregnancy, even because they are close to their twelve months (so never use the twelve month thing after employing for 11!).  There are other reasons also so look it up.

You don't have to give a reason for dismissal in the 'twelve month' period however unless it is gross misconduct you will still need to give the agreed amount of notice, usually one week is sufficent, this would have to be paid in lieu if you didn't want them to work it.  You would also have to pay all of their accrued holiday to date - minimum is 1.66 days per calendar month, even if they have only worked a week they are entitled to a proportion of this.

Having said all of that there is more than one way to skin a cat.  Don't dismiss her at all just keep pulling her in about her work and keep turning up showing her how to do things (training I think it's called  )  You will probably find that she will either 'shape up or ship out' of her own accord.

When a person hasn't worked for you long you don't know what their motivation is, she may be waiting to be sacked to claim dole, a trouble maker or just down right lazy, so difficult to know which course to take.

Hope this has helped somewhat.

Fox

[richyvezy]

It must be me as my experience with ACAS is cr*p !! 
When I eventually got through to someone, I went through the whole saga leaving no details out to be told that "no notice needs to be given if they have been employed less than a month but proper procedures need to be followed". I asked if that meant I had to give her a weeks notice or not, to which she replied "I can't advise you on that but correct procedures need to be followed"!!

Your the helpline I said and I'm fairly new to this employing malarky so I need advise to which she replied "I've given you the standard advise". Thanks for nothing I said and put the phone down. What a complete waste of time !!

Our pre-employment checks and training are fine although I never rest on my laurels and will improve where I can but no training can compensate for someone using window cleaner on worktops or not changing mop-heads when they have plenty spare etc etc.......(I think that's called common sense  )

To be safe rather than sorry I'm gonna either give her a weeks notice or houd her to quit, whichever comes first.

Richy

[Kevin White]

I agree with FOX on this.
I get much more satisfaction working with a poor operative and turning them around than i do replacing them.
If you are going to get rid of her, i don't think you have anything to worry about, just do it by the book and pay her what she is due.
Ps my opinion, the only good thing about ACAS is the website, not the helpline.

[Dust Knights]

In my experience ACAS have always been very good; both website and telephone advice. If you think you have problems with disciplinary procedures try redundancies, that's even more intricate. Do it at the time of a TUPE transfer (as I just have) and that's the icing on the cake.

Fact 1. An employee does have employment rights with less that 1 years service.

Fact 2. An employee can be dismissed within the first year's employment without going through the standard disciplinary procedures although it is considered good practise to still do so.

Fact 3. If it isn't for Gross Misconduct you will need to give a week's notice and pay any holiday pay accrued.

Fact 4. If an employee is dismissed within the first year with or without going through the procedures they CAN take you to an Employment Tribunal if they feel it has been discriminatory - age, gender, disability, sexual orientation, race etc

Regards

Chris

[PremierPDS]

Hi

Didn't give it much thought when I posted earlier in this thread but if you contact your insurers their legal department will be able to help you. A friend of mine has just done this (not in the cleaning business) and is more or less the same situation as you are. I've alway found ACAS very helpful though and therefore shocked at the response you got from them. Some advisors there are better than others however and it might be worth your while trying them again and getting another advisor.

Nickie x

[CATMAN]

Hi,

I pay for advice to one of these legal services.

I have dismissed staff, "for not being suitable" etc, however, I have been told that although the dismissal is not unfair, it could be classed as wrongul dismissal, as all employees are supposed to be invited to a discilplinary hearing and be entiled to a rep from a union or work collegue to be present. You must also state that dismissal is also being considered. If you do dismiss, it must be in writing and you must give the right of appeal in the letter.

Its a minefield, get some legal advice if you feel she could be a troublemaker, or do what I end up doing, lose you patatience and tell them to clear off and don't pay the numptys anything!

Regards

CATMAN