[*thomas james]

aaa

[Alex Gardiner]

Hi TJ,

The new Hybrid poles come in 30ft (7x 4.28') and 35ft (8x 4.37'). They are a Glass fibre and Carbon Fibre mix. They have the stiffness of a carbon fibre pole without the full expense of pure Carbon. The 30ft has a base diameter of 46mm and the 35ft has a base diameter of 50mm.

The new Carbon Fibre poles come in 45ft (9x 5') and 60ft (9x6.6'). These poles use just Carbon Fibre and therefore have very good rigidity and are also reasonably lightweight. Both of these poles have a base diameter of 54mm, making them easy to hold.

The thinking behind these poles is that by using shorter section they will be far easier to use, allowing the operator to put even the 60ft pole upright without having to 'walk' it up a building. It also allows for rapid height adjustment as the operator can easily reach the clamps. If you need a 45ft or 60ft telescopic pole then these will be the poles to have, nothing comes close for speed of use.

These poles also have class beating stiffness, just wait for our comparison video. The clamp design is extremely well thought out and allows for simple one handed operation whilst having a very 'positive' action that does not allow for accidental release. The clamps also have a large degree of adjustability to allow for a longer operational life.

[NWH]

When can we see one please Alex.

[Alex Gardiner]

You'll have to wait until May to see the Carbon Fibre/Hybrid range.  We will be sending out the Glass Fibre range to our clients before the end of the month.

[Andrew McCann]

We will be launching the new Extel range at the Federation Show in Blackpool next Saturday.

We will have the new composite poles there along with many other great products.

Come along and have a chat with us.

Andrew

[Jeff Brimble]

Is the Extel different to the Excel

[Alex Gardiner]

Exel are the manufacturer's of the following brands:

Extender, Universal, Ergolite, E2 and now the new Extel range.

[Philip Hanson]

Alex,

Interesting post, but not correct.

Exel do not manufacture the E2, and it is made using a completely different manufacturing technique to that that exel uses. (Pultrusion)

They are a Glass fibre and Carbon Fibre mix. They have the stiffness of a carbon fibre pole without the full expense of pure Carbon...

These poles also have class beating stiffness...

nothing comes close for speed of use..

Interesting claims, (though a little vague) which I would be interested to see backed up by evidence.   The only way to substantiate that would be to compare it with the other poles available.

This is a subject that I am particularly interested in, and I am currently studying in some depth.

I think your post illustrates a problem that faces the window cleaner at present. The difference between poles used to be reasonably straightforward, but now I think things are not quite so clear cut.  There are now lots of brands of pole, many claiming to be the stiffest this or the lightest that.  Really, how would a window cleaner know unless you got hold of them all and tested them side by side? 

Similarly, if a company (and facelift are a prime example of this) produces a very good, stiff, lightweight pole, how can they demonstrate its superiority to others in the market place?  They could say its a very stiff, lightweight pole, but then everyone says that about their poles, regardless of whether its true or not.

Its also no help to compare the properties of the individual materials used in consturction, because the how much a pole bends is a function not only of the material properties, but also the grip of the clamps, the section diameters, closeness of the fit and other factors besides.  The only way to do it is to look at the pole in its entirety.

I could tell you, for example,  that Facelift's 45ft pole is stiffer and lighter than the unger carbontec and the exel universal.  It is stiffer, but heavier than a 45ft Tucker pole.  It is almost, but not quite as stiff as the original ergolite.

The only reason I can tell you that is because I have tested all of those poles side by side, and I'll be publishing the results.

Also, the "thinking" behind 6ft sections is nothing new.  The Heath and Saftey laboratory made recommendations in its 2004 report that the clamps should be reachable from the ground.  Since then, there have been poles available up to 45ft and even 60ft that fulfill this recommendation, including the Tucker and the original ergolite.

It has taken exel this long to finally produce a production pole that is 45ft using only 6ft sections.  (Before that, the original ergolite was the only composte pole to reach 45ft with only 6ft sections, and was developed and manufactured by exel under a special order agreement.)

-Philip

[Peter Fogwill]

Philip, did you test the Superlight poles as well?  And if so how do they compare with the others on the market?

Peter

[EasyClean]

Alex,

Interesting post, but not correct.

Exel do not manufacture the E2, and it is made using a completely different manufacturing technique to that that exel uses. (Pultrusion)

They are a Glass fibre and Carbon Fibre mix. They have the stiffness of a carbon fibre pole without the full expense of pure Carbon...

These poles also have class beating stiffness...

nothing comes close for speed of use..

Interesting claims, (though a little vague) which I would be interested to see backed up by evidence.   The only way to substantiate that would be to compare it with the other poles available.

This is a subject that I am particularly interested in, and I am currently studying in some depth.

I think your post illustrates a problem that faces the window cleaner at present. The difference between poles used to be reasonably straightforward, but now I think things are not quite so clear cut.  There are now lots of brands of pole, many claiming to be the stiffest this or the lightest that.  Really, how would a window cleaner know unless you got hold of them all and tested them side by side? 

Similarly, if a company (and facelift are a prime example of this) produces a very good, stiff, lightweight pole, how can they demonstrate its superiority to others in the market place?  They could say its a very stiff, lightweight pole, but then everyone says that about their poles, regardless of whether its true or not.

Its also no help to compare the properties of the individual materials used in consturction, because the how much a pole bends is a function not only of the material properties, but also the grip of the clamps, the section diameters, closeness of the fit and other factors besides.  The only way to do it is to look at the pole in its entirety.

I could tell you, for example,  that Facelift's 45ft pole is stiffer and lighter than the unger carbontec and the exel universal.  It is stiffer, but heavier than a 45ft Tucker pole.  It is almost, but not quite as stiff as the original ergolite.

The only reason I can tell you that is because I have tested all of those poles side by side, and I'll be publishing the results.

Also, the "thinking" behind 6ft sections is nothing new.  The Heath and Saftey laboratory made recommendations in its 2004 report that the clamps should be reachable from the ground.  Since then, there have been poles available up to 45ft and even 60ft that fulfill this recommendation, including the Tucker and the original ergolite.

It has taken exel this long to finally produce a production pole that is 45ft using only 6ft sections.  (Before that, the original ergolite was the only composte pole to reach 45ft with only 6ft sections, and was developed and manufactured by exel under a special order agreement.)

-Philip

I agree with a lot of what Philip Hanson has to say however; I too have tried out most of the poles and disagree that 'Facelift' poles are stiffer than 'Unger's carbon tec' although they are definitely lighter. The Unger carbon tec is stiffer in normal window cleaning use than 'Ionic's' ergolite because I've compared them together at 45ft. Despite the Unger being stiffer I still prefer to use my Ionic's ergolite's at height simply because they are telescopic and lighter than an Unger, although I've replaced the 'Ionic' factory fitted brushes as in my opinion they don't compliment the pole at all. IMO if they fitted the brush that's fitted to the Unger carbon tec to their poles they'd be laughing because it's a much lighter brush and gives a superior clean, trapping less dirt in it's bristles with less physical effort even on new cleans using hot or cold water.
I went to the cleaning show in Birmingham and was dissapointed to discover that the new ergolite pole (E2) has the same pole diameter as on the original ergolites. 'Facelift' will be able to sleep easy knowing that they don't face any competition on their slimmer diameter designed poles which may not be as stiff as Ionics but are much easier to hold at height. I prefer to compomise a little stiffness for a smaller diameter pole which is much easier to work at height with anyday.

[Alex Gardiner]

With these new X-Tel poles we will have 9 different types of poles in stock. We will also have another carbon fibre brand in stock within a couple of months.

I have also had hands on experience with the Unger Carbon-Tec (although we do not stock them) and the Unger aluminium poles. I also have two other prototype poles in current use, which use a telescopic non-clamping system. I also have purchased and used extensively a Powerpole system and have owned several Ionics and Omnipole poles.

We will have a new exclusive Super-Lite™ modular system on the shelves within a couple of months and have bought and tried many of the 'fishing poles' that the DIY'ers are using.

I personally have 22 years experience with window cleaning and the last 6 years have been spent using WFP.

All of the above give me a reasonable idea of what constitutes a good WFP. I personally use WFP up to heights of 50ft on a weekly basis and have the advantage of being able to try out virtually any pole I wish.

I apologise if I was incorrect about the manufacturer of the E2 (which is a good pole).

The new Carbon Fibre X-tel 45ft will reach this height with sections of just 5ft, in my mind this is a massive advantage over most other telescopic poles.

You are right  Philip about the only real way to compare is a back to back test. Generally the only people who are able to do this are those within the industry. The average WC does not have the resources to simply 'try out' 9 or 10 different ranges.

[macmac]

Alex
will the new telescopic carbon poles have removable sections??

tony

[Alex Gardiner]

The new carbon fibre range we will have in stock soon will have removable sections.

[Philip Hanson]

Hi Alex,

Please don't misunderstand my reply, I didn't wish to suggest anything about you or your experiance personally.  I know of several suppliers of window cleaning equipment who have no window cleaning experience whatsoever, and I think that shows sometimes!  So its a welcome relief when somone actually knows what its like to be a window cleaner from hands-on experience.

What I'm saying is that its easy for a supplier to say that their pole is the stiffest or the lightest, and because of that is that it's very difficult for the window cleaner to know one way or the other.

Actually using the poles for window cleaning work is a good way to get a feel for the differences between poles and certainly you could ascertain ease of use, but I'm sure you'd agree, it is not an absolute way to compare them.  You could say that after using it, your opinion is that pole A is better than pole B, but it would be wrong to then say authorititively that pole A is stiffer then pole B just on the basis of using it for window cleaning alone.

It is my opinion that the only way to compare them is to adopt a testing method that would be used for any other object that you wanted compare; to subject them to the same standard tests, and then measure how each performs.

So far in the study of poles that I'm doing, (and I'd welcome your input on this Alex) I have ascertained that there are 6 pole characteristics that materially affect the choice of pole. In no particular order;

1: Weight
2: Stiffness
3: Handle Diameter
4: Cost
5: Ease / Speed of Use
6: Robustness

Weight, Handle Diameter and Cost are of course easy to measure.

But how do you measure stiffness?  Its not as easy as you might think.  As I said, you can have a sample of the carbon fibre material tested in a lab, and they'll give you a very precise measure of its physical properties, but that won't be much help because how much a pole bends is influenced as much by other factors.  Also, one pole (the E2) uses a different specification of carbon fibre for each of its sections, so material properties are no help here at all.

Developing a standard test for stiffness is something that I've been devoting a lot of time to.

The picure is then complicated by the fact that some of these characteristics become less important for poles of a certain length.

For example, a carbon fibre pole is stiffer than a glass fibre pole any day, but if I needed an 18ft pole (which is the legth of choice for a lot of residential work) I'd never buy a carbon pole because the difference in stiffness would be so slight that it wouldn't make any practical difference at all, though it would cost a lot more.

And, a super stiff, super lightweight pole is of no use at all if it isn't robust enough to stand up to the punishment that window cleaners will give it.  But again, how do you measure robustness?  Its not an easy proposition, and its made even more complicated by the fact that the properties of carbon fibre can change significantly at lower temperatures.  Some carbon poles, although nice and light, become so brittle below 6 degrees celcius that they are no use for window cleaning at all.  This is one area where an actual laboratory test of the material will be useful.

Then there's ease of use.  How do you measure that?  This isnt a physical property of the pole, so it cant be tested like weight and diameter.  For this property, actually using a pole for window cleaning work would be a useful test.  You could use each pole to clean the same windows, and time how long each took.  But even then, this assumes that the 'ease of use' is directly linked to 'speed of use' and that might not be the case.  Perhaps the best way to measure ease of use would be to get a test sample window cleaners to try each pole and record their opinions.

And then, after you've done all that, you'd also need to understand the fact that pole choice is also influenced a great deal by personal preference.  The tucker pole is much bendier than almost any carbon or glass fibre pole you care to mention, but it remains one of the most popular poles out there, largely due to personal preference.

With these complications, it has taken a lot of effort to come up with a reasonable basis of comparison, and even now I'm still working on the study.  I have to say, its a fascinating subject and its easy to get absorbed in a study like this!

-Philip

[Alex Gardiner]

Philip,

I like your last post. I would agree with your 6 points, also that these points have differing value at different heights. The simple example is that over 45ft weight and stiffness become more important than cost and speed of use.

We too have tried to assess and measure the various factors involved. A simple test that I do with any of the poles we sell is to fully extend the pole horizontally and clamp the bottom 4ft to a workbench. With a brush fitted it is fairly easy to see how the poles compare to each other on flex. Also you can then set them bouncing to see which has better damping properties. All of this is fairly basic, but along with an accurate weight measurement it does go some way to providing a starting point for our customers if they ask our opinion.

We previously tried to introduce a pole rating system using weight/rigidity and obviously price. (the easiest to compare, as long as you leave out maintenance!) We found though that it ended up being too subjective and some manufacturers complained to us that it did not include enough factors so we dropped it. Something like this would probably be better if done by an independent body, rather than a supplier/manufacturer. A magazine would have also to be careful not to upset their advertisers

Most suppliers already do their own tests just to gauge the competition, look at Ionics recent video at the Cleaning show. This was an excellent example of evaluating comparable products. Video does seem to be the way forward with showing products to the consumer.

Perhaps we have a role here for a group of forum members that have a good level of experience in the industry. A body could be set-up to measure and tabulate results. The trouble is though that even with this set-up what criteria would be measured by them. What one person would feel is important another would not rate as critical.

 I look forward to any further research that you do. If you need any help or products please do not hesitate to contact me.

[JM123]

Philip - a standard rigidity test wouldn't work as no 2 poles are the same, also some wc's prefer a pole with a bit of whip in it.

Just as Alex says, 'what one person would feel is important another would not rate as crucial'.

My own background in mechatronic and chemical engineering tells me that the most fundamental problem with poles on the market is the materials they are constructed from.  Most of the poles on the market have been developed for compressive strength, not for torsional rigidity.  This is where you can see the difference with the carbon fishing poles, they have been developed with torsional rigidity in mind - hence why they are only a fraction of the weight of most poles but generally flex a lot less than the other available poles.  While carbon fibre is a good material for this type of application it is certainly not the best, nor is fibreglass or aluminium - don't bother asking me what i feel is the best material for this type of application because I'm not about to tell anyone.

[Clive McDonald]

Mr Hanson seems to have come to this a bit late.

It's standard practice in, say mountain biking magazines to test and evalulate bikes and like for like associated products. Varous criteria are used for the assesment, many of which are subjective. The overiding objective being if it is for a magazine readership that it should be interesting.

When have you ever know  for instance Jeremy Clarkson to be either fair or objective when road testing or assesing a car. He is very often rude or funny but seldom fair.Yet he is the top man in the field.

[poles apart]

[quote author=JM123 link=topic=36192.msg285252#msg285252 date=117724724- don't bother asking me what i feel is the best material for this type of application because I'm not about to tell anyone.

Go on- don't be shy

[JM123]

poles apart - I could tell you but then you or someone else will disagree.

[macmac]

Ha, dont be shy JM, people dissagree with me all the time sometimes i end up dissagreeing with myself!

tony