[Neil Williams]

In a quest to try and help window cleaners I would like to ask for your views on how associations and particulary the APWC would be appealing enough for you to join. Afterall, if we don't know what you want then how can we help the individuals out there doing the job.
Answers via this page or by e-mail neil.apwc@hotmail.co.uk 

[Neil Williams]

So I guess no-one cares then

[JohnL]

So how many replied to your recent survey?

[Chris Cottrell]

How about free membership Neil ?


To be honest Neil, for me I get my kit at the best place I find online it, ordered in the eve when I've got time to browse , Insurance from the best place my broker can find  etc etc , you tell me why i need an association to get the benefits for me?

Chris

[NWH]

They would be worth joining if it meant wcs that don`t belong to them or it can`t go around doing the job,it has no effect on the domestic side of the job at all which is a shame.If it meant it would stop all the cowboys and i mean all then i would join.

[Chris Cottrell]

I would join an association if i thought it would benefit my company, I do think (i may be wrong but) I have work coming in from recommendations and not because I'm "a member" of this or that

Chris

[NWH]

I must say i do like the pretty stickers that you get,they look good on the vans.

[jeff1]

I have nothing against them, if there was a definite  benefit to be gained from them.

My view is the public neeed to be educated with regards to the new WAHR, if they were educated, then I feel more and more of us would Join associations.

Just like the corgi registered plumber, customers now have to have one for there boilers and can't just use the cheap handyman down the road.

So perhaps they could concentrate on education first.

These are just my own personal opinions and they are not meant to knock any of the associations, I'm sure they all do a good Job.

[Chris Cottrell]

So there you go Neil , concentrate on public awareness make them believe they need registered W/C's then we may all join

Chris

[brightnclean]

I applaud your efforts Neil.

Unfortunately though all peple seem to be interested in is what they can get out of things such as the APWC. Don't fool yourself into thinking that most folks are interested in anything other than their own benefit. While I agree that it would be great to have a vibrant and professional body that could push our image into the 21st century I honestly think you are flogging a dead horse with the run of the mill window cleaner.  

I would happily join if I though that it would make any difference but I know I would just end up disillusioned by it all.

[Pj]

You do have a bit of a "poisoned chalice" there Neil.

In many respects you should be telling the window cleaner what you can offer him.  You're gonna have to hard sell it to the likes of me.
I'm in my 21st year now.  What can you offer me that I don't already have?  Apart from a sticker on my van that most take no notice of!  A very good friend of mine used to tell me to join the Fed', he has been a member for over 15 years, I asked him what benefits he'd gained a few months back, he told me it had been a waste, just a sticker!
To make the APWC something relevant to mr local windowcleaner sole/small trader it would need thousand££s and thousand££s spent in putting it into the public domain convincing the commercial and domestic market why they should buy the integrity of an APWC member.  TV advertising, newspaper advertising, local authority exclusive approval, to name a few market approaches!  Not going to happen realistically, is it?

[Chris Cottrell]

I feel quite ashamed that I'm not a member really , if it wasn't for the efforts of people like Neil and the others involved these associations would not exist , but selfish little old Me is looking out for my interests and the benefits that will help my company , sad i know but true, if i had the cash sitting in the bank doing nothing else i would become a member because i know for me i would be 1 of only 2 W/C's in this immediate area that is a member of any association the other being a member of the Fed

Chris

[Paul Coleman]

So I guess no-one cares then

Well I intend to join in the next few weeks.
Help with marketing my business and a discount on signwriting my van look to be reasonable benefits that would be worth the first year membership fee to me.
It's not just about that though is it?
It's also about what can I put back.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure that I can put much back as I need to concentrate my efforts on earning money and filling those gaps in my workload with work of quality.  Let's face it, I could go out door knocking for two or three weeks and end up filling up those gaps but anyone can canvass work where they have to work hard for lowish pay.
I feel that there is an opportunity here to create something that is democratic AND transparent and I fear that the opportunity could be lost if enough people don't get a bit involved - or at least sign up as members.
I also want to say that I'm not anti FWC either.  It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.  I'm am all for trade associations in principle.  Although having more than one could prove divisive, at least if there are two TAs of a decent size it can serve to keep both TAs on their toes regarding the way members are treated, kept informed etc.
Money is a bit tight right now but I intend to join up by mid May.

So in case this thread was starting to get you down Neil, I just thought you might like a bit of positive input too.

I applaud what you and a few others are trying to do.

[P®oPole™]

I have nothing against them, if there was a definite  benefit to be gained from them.

My view is the public neeed to be educated with regards to the new WAHR, if they were educated, then I feel more and more of us would Join associations.

Just like the corgi registered plumber, customers now have to have one for there boilers and can't just use the cheap handyman down the road.

So perhaps they could concentrate on education first.

These are just my own personal opinions and they are not meant to knock any of the associations, I'm sure they all do a good Job.

I agree with Jeff, they need to educate the public and get the word accross about W.A.H.L 2005.

I think I read somewere that ladders free.com sent out tens of thoushands of W.A.H.L leaflets down the commecial lines.

[Terry_Burrows]

I think most just want to ern loads and thats it if they can do this they think do we need one

[JohnL]

In my experience associations and the like are possibly good in this industry for the commercial boys with large accounts, large vans and systems and even larger logos etc slapped all over those vans.

Large account customers like to see commitment to the work, the trade, the future and a good sense of ethics re work practices, knowledge of H&S, mission statements etc etc which they expect to see if one is a member of a trade association.

However for the non-commercial WCer who deals with joe public who as yet - in general, have not heard of H&S let alone ladder problems or water fed poles, I dont think an association is much use to them.

Can you seriously see a situation where you call on a prospective customer who tells you - '' Oh yes, I had a circular from your lot a few weeks ago and I've got it stuck to the fridge under a magnet in case any one called offering to clean my windows!''

I have yet to talk to anyone who knows anything about H&S re ladder work or WFP other than ''possibly seeing someone using something somewhere or other''.

Any attempt at an association educating the general public on a mass scale I think has an enviable task on their hands.

The benefits outlined in this thread are basically targeting and will be useful I am sure, to the large commercial outfits.

So to me, a non commercial WCer,  with the type of private customer I have, I cannot see the benefits in belonging to an association at present.

I do of course wish you well and praise you all for the hard work and dedication I know you are putting into this.

[Mr.G]

I'd join an association that fights for our rights to use ladders, and fights against height regulations.

[Sarah Sarill]

For me its all about making the public aware about the need to choose a w/c who is legit as well as cost saving benefits and practical advice in advanxce of reading it on this valuable forum.

Thats a bit broad I know but the biggest challenge we face in our business is educating customers why they should use us rather than the £2 summer w/c with a ladder and bucket.

Its takes valuable time and effort explaining insurances and WAHD to every one who challenges you and that you quote on.

In an ideal world they would know what to look for and make us a natural choice.  I know this is many years down the line yet but APWC self promotion is vital to its success. Corgi stature would be nice 

As we speak most commercial & residential customers have never heard of either Ass so  it is no real benefit to belong HOWEVER, these guys give freely of their own time and money and need the finincial and moral support in the early years to attempt to make our 'wish list' a reality for the future.

My humble opinion only. 

Sarah

[Trevor Knight]

I'd join an association that fights for our rights to use ladders, and fights against height regulations.

What makes you think we won't do that for you?

The problem we have, is unfortunately, history proves accidents happen in this industry and the government look at the cost implication because of these accidents. Then they look at how they can minimise this factor and approach it that way. Wether or not you embrace WFP as a tool of the trade, unfortunately it is a proven safer method of cleaning and on that at present has proved less of a risk factor? Who knows, maybe if people start dropping poles on peoples heads they make take another look, but for now it is the twinkle in their eye.

I would point out, that as we speak, ladders are NOT banned!

It's down to safely operating our equipment and protecting ourselves against un-necessary risks?

[Trevor Knight]

I have nothing against them, if there was a definite  benefit to be gained from them.

My view is the public neeed to be educated with regards to the new WAHR, if they were educated, then I feel more and more of us would Join associations.

Just like the corgi registered plumber, customers now have to have one for there boilers and can't just use the cheap handyman down the road.

So perhaps they could concentrate on education first.

These are just my own personal opinions and they are not meant to knock any of the associations, I'm sure they all do a good Job.

Couldn't agree more with you!

Our problem is this! We need to educate the public which as mentioned would cost thousands of pounds in terms of media, leaflets, radio etc.....

So, how do we raise this capitol, remember, we do this of our own backs as committeee members.

Firstly we look for sponsorship from manufacturers, but they in turn look for the members as this is their target audience. Its hard to convince a manufacturer to sponsor an association with limited members.

Secondly we look for window cleaners to join as members, once we have paid for the membership pack, insurance and our overhead cost their is a small proportion left as profit. But as mentioned, everyone wants as much back as possible so with the benefits there is not much profit to use for publicity.

So if we did pay the advertising costs out of the committee members pockets and it cost for instance £10,000 (which I believe is way under the expected requirement) then in order for us to recoupe our outlay, membership would be a lot more expensive which in turn would cause resentment from the window cleaners as they would se us as dictators demanding a high premium to join something we created?

So to avoid this, we are in effect asking window cleaners to help us to help them, join now, we use the money as effectively as possible, remember, NO COMMITTEE MEMBER earns a bean from this money! We then promote the APWC to the householders, business etc....... Name awareness increases and we become more of a force to be reckoned with?

Well, thats my call on the whole situation?