[rosskesava]

I think Rosskesava is just playing Devils Advocate

I am in a way doing just that. In another way I'm not. My questions were serious questions. Some of the replies have proven my point. It has turned into a wfp thread.

The majority of window cleaners still use traditional methods yet going by this forum, all there is is wfp.

What I actually think is and what I've got an answer to, without even asking the question or making a comment about it, is that in the years to come, tradtional window cleaners will earn a bomb and wfp window cleaners will be ten a penny, and will come and go just as they're doing so now. At this point in time, wfp prices for window cleaning are still based of doing the job trad style. It doesn't take much working out that as wfp becomes mainstream that another wfp user will offer to do the job cheaper because the time taken is less than with trad methods and so...... work it out for yourselves? What always happens in the market place when a quicker method becomes available and what happens when the quaility goes downhill and the cowboys turn up in numbers? People will pay for what they once got but will will pay more for it.

Before anyone thinks I'm having a go at wfp, I'm not. I've used wfp in the past and in the future I will be using it again. I wouldn't either have used it, or would be planning to again if it was useless. I'm just thinking in terms of how the market will go. Wfp companies are dependant on increased sales. The cost of buying wfp will come down. Advertising will market wfp as a means to make moneys easily and quickly. Along with the genuine wfp user will always be those who fall for the 'quick buck' idea and that will be the future.

Or why else has the numbers or posters and members of CUI increased? Because of cleaning windows trad style? NO.  The number of questions by w/c's who use trad methods has decreased to the point of almost zero and now it is almost 100% about wfp. Wakey wakey. Work it all out for yourselves.

Anyway, that is a bye the bye and was not the point I was making.

I still think that trad w/c's are being slowly pushed out of this forum and bit by bit, are becoming less inclined to post questions and that the tittle of this part of the forum needs to reflect the main topic of most postings.

I'm just thankfull that even without this forum in the present, I have enough knowledge, thanks to this forum in the past, to make my way in this world as a window cleaner at whatever level.

One day I may get banned from this forum.

Cheers

[texas girl]

I am 100% traditional. We almost always (95%) do insides and the market just does not cooperate with WFP in my location.

I know I will buy one in the future but the cost does not justify the income generated  or the need at this time for me.

Our ladder laws are different and the construction of homes although a lot of windows; hardly ever 3 floors and up. A few local companies do the high rise buildings; but I stay busy enough without them.

I love this forum and I think there has been so much debate over this topic; some traditional users just avoid the drama. :

Not because of any fear; we know what we know. The question is; "How important is proving this argument one way or another"?

I have learned a LOT from traditional posts. Maybe a lot of us are confident in traditional and see some wfp users as being  competitive and outspoken as if one way out does the other. (No offense; so do not get panties in a wad)

Both are needed and good. We need to support each other and quit the competitive atmosphere.

Good post, Ross. Point well made.

As Always, Hugs;

Texas Girl

[rosskesava]

Texas

I was just going to bed when I read your reply.

It's just so great to hear from you again. That has made my night a perfect one.

Where have you been and how are you doing and how are you now coping with that tragedy that really touched a point somewhere within me that I cannot describe it? It made me think about my own children often in a different way from previously.

Sorry to put a downer on my high but how are you doing?

Thanks for posting. I'll read the content of what you posted tomorrow evening as I'm off to bed now. I'm too tired to make any sense of what I'm reading in.

I was just so happy that the posting was from you.

The time here is 2.25am.

Good night Debbie.

[rosskesava]

Oh... and Hugs to you. Big ones. 

I also saw your calender. Nice. 

[Ian_Giles]

I take Ross's point that as more and more convert to WFP in some area's, because of the 'potential' to be so much faster then prices may well plummet.

Although if customers are then going to be prepared to pay much bigger money for windows done trad, then conversely it will also mean that people will also continue to pay a similar amount for WFP done correctly and to a high standard.

The get rich quick brigade will also realise very quickly that you WON'T get rich charging cut price prices!
So they will try to go even faster and cut even more corners.

A downside of WFP is that it is just so EASY to wet a window, but this doesn't mean you have CLEANED the window!
And this is what will happen as (if) prices get slashed.

Initial purchase price will always be relatively high compared to trad,as will running costs.
Unfortunately the reputation of WFP will continue to be tarnished by those who...I won't call them cowboys, though some might, I'll stick with calling them the get rich quick brigade...who slash their prices to compete for work and then out doing dreadful work.

I don't log into the 'other forum' anymore, to busy on this one, but at one point they were having hardly any posting done, and they had separate trad and WFP sections, so splitting window cleaning into separate sections won't necessarily work.

Lets hope that all those with trad questions keep posting them here!

As one of the moderators I do try to keep a trad question a trad thread with trad replies
Though sometimes the question needs a WFP reply...

Ian

[dai]

Some good points raised, but some things don't change. Most customers want to play it safe with their old window cleaner who's been coming for years. This goes for trad or WFP. Trust is, and always will be a major factor in retaining custom.
Proven reliability, and top class work, will ensure we retain the vast majority of customers.
I was contacted again today by an ex customer that had moved, and asking if I did any work in his area. He was not happy with his present W/C.
I have frequent requests of this nature.
We may lose out to the slap dash brigade, when tendering for new work.
I am not afraid of losing long term customers to them though. Dai

[neil100]

I was working in a village today and an x customer came to find me by following the yellow hose.

He switched several months a go to a guy who still cleans windows trad because I said its wfp or nothing. If you can show me my work is bad with wfp I will clean them for free. He never could the glass was allways immaculate when they dried. He just hated the mess.

But several months on he now knows this trad w/c can get nowhere near to the quality of my work plushis upvc as gone dirty. He begged me to come back. I am more expensive but when good customers are used to a high quality service there will allways be a market for highly paid w/.cleaners.

I start my 28th year next week as a w/cleaner and I allways have heard storties since I started that hard times are round the corner with every man and dog doing w/cleaning. NOT ON YOUR NELLY.

Nel :

[rosskesava]

I think Ian Mr St Nice Giles summed it up well.

Dai made a good point about quality of work and also Neil100 makes a great point that with window cleaning that 'bad times' are always around the corner.

But again, with Dai and Neil100 it comes back to how good wfp is.

At the moment I am purely a 100% traditional window cleaner. I've used wfp in the recent past and will be using it again in the near future along with traditional window cleaning.

I now take the point about keeping wfp and trad in the same part of the forum.

I still think that traditional is by far in the majority but that the posts here about trad are in the minority. If I was new to window cleaning traditional style I'd be scared to post anything unless I was an upfront type of person.

I'll think I'll leave the points I was making at that.

Cheers

[texas girl]

Hey Ross,

I hope all window cleaners keep things in perspective as far as we are all the same. WFP or traditional. I have so much respect for both. WFP is exciting . (All that talk about poles and everything)oops.

Then again traditional is so fascinating. And will always be in demand.

Too bad some guys are slashing rates with the wfp; they will not last.  : They still do the same with traditional.

I call them "fly by nights". You guys call them cowboys. Same thing. Here today, gone tomorrow. They hurt the market price somewhat but we all need to keep our rates profitable.

It is tempting to go lower some times but to HOLD STEADY and remain fair yet profitable is the right thing to do.

I will post on the "any topic" forum about recent developments regarding my son. Thanks for asking. It has been hard.

This forum is the best!

Hugs,

Texas Girl

[Ian_Giles]

I now take the point about keeping wfp and trad in the same part of the forum.

I still think that traditional is by far in the majority but that the posts here about trad are in the minority. If I was new to window cleaning traditional style I'd be scared to post anything unless I was an upfront type of person.

I'll think I'll leave the points I was making at that.

Cheers

I think Ross most certainly has a point here, but I do hope people will still post there questions on trad, I know the same questions often get asked over and over again, but it is also getting that way with the WFP questions too!

Where quality is concerned I don't think WFP does a briliant! job in comparison to trad, but it can do a more thorough job more often than not, but it really does come down to the operator, and it is so easy to get it wrong with WFP!

Ian