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idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2007, 02:25:49 pm »
 To seanmcshane

"ideal rob, Ladder tagging is not essential for a sole trader who uses 1 ladder. It is my responsibility to check the working condition of my ladder as and when I feel it necessary."

Statutory Instrument 2005 No. 735
The Work at Height Regulations 2005

Application
     3.  - (1) These Regulations shall apply -



(a) in Great Britain; and

(b) outside Great Britain as sections 1 to 59 and 80 to 82 of the 1974 Act apply by virtue of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (Application outside Great Britain) Order 2001[4].


    (2) The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer shall apply in relation to work -

a self-employed person, in relation to work -


(a) by an employee of his; or

(b) by any other person under his control, to the extent of his control.


    (3) The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer shall also apply to -






(

SCHEDULE 7
Regulation 12(7)



PARTICULARS TO BE INCLUDED IN A REPORT OF INSPECTION


     1. The name and address of the person for whom the inspection was carried out.

     2. The location of the work equipment inspected.

     3. A description of the work equipment inspected.

     4. The date and time of the inspection.

     5. Details of any matter identified that could give rise to a risk to the health or safety of any person.

     6. Details of any action taken as a result of any matter identified in paragraph 5.

     7. Details of any further action considered necessary.

     8. The name and position of the person making the report.

my oponion, i will happily satnd corrected if wrong. For the record i think nearly everyone takes there own view to the regulation, Both trad, wfp, sky tv, bill poster people, self employed, employeees and employers. I dont know what to dp really as my other side of my business is a drycleaners with a high street shop and we a now from October 2006 registered and regulated and the rules are more black and white. It has taken 25 years, but from Nov 1 2007 action will be taken against those who are then working illegally, and this includes national companies to small mum and dad drycleaners.
Sorry for changing the subject, but how do national companies, council  etc still keep using ladders illegally by not even using a ladderstopper for example or on old wooden ladders with no laddertags or load weight etc.

Ladders are not banned, i agree 100% with that,,,, but how mant times do you see if they are used, are the being used by not complying with the WAHR 2005. Simply means securing at the bottom, and sometimes the top, using a bucket on a belt, using a trade ladder with a laddertag.

idealrob




D.Salkeld_Ltd

  • Posts: 951
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2007, 05:03:56 pm »

OK, My opinions.

1.  Most importantly, RESPECT for one another.  Lets face it at the end of the day WE are ALL Window Cleaners.

2.  Ladders ARE Dangerouse! No one needs to tell US that we most probably have many experiences of our own to show we know that.

3.  The Regulations are written by people in offices who realy do not know about Ladders so therefor the Regs are by far not perfect.

TEA BREAK!!
Gotta go for me tea now.............will add more later

David
Not Perfect - But Honest

mattstanley

Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2007, 03:45:09 pm »
Firstly, I use wfp and ladders and have no axe to grind either way.

I have to say that KarlJones posts are the most sensible I have read on this whole subject.  I, like Karl, in my previous work oversaw H&S in a factory and agree that all H&S regs have to be taken into account when doing risk assessments, not just working at height.  Unless it is taken very seriously, RSI WILL be a major problem for our industry and to ignore this either as an employer or a sole trader is asking for trouble.

I have spoken to two H&S consultants working for well known consultancy firms about the TWAHR and they both said that the regulations were primarily targetting the deaths and serious injuries occurring in the construction industry and it has suceeded greatly in this respect.  H&S regs are designed to reduce injury and fatality statistics and the construction industry is the greatest culprit, so any improvement here means success all round.  Both acknowledged that the TWAHR certainly applied to window cleaners, but that they should be appoached with a balanced point of view as our industry is a lot lower risk than industries such as construction, due to the experience of most ladder using window cleaners and the short duration of their work up a ladder.

I think it is testimony to the professionalism of our industry that we take H&S so seriously.  WFP is a great tool, but ladders (when used safely and correctly) are too.  However, as Karl was saying I think, look at the whole picture as far as H&S, not just one set of regs.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2007, 06:59:20 pm »
The RSI problem is an interesting one, exactly how it will affect us remains to be seen.
Use of ladders often exceeds those lifting regs, lugging a big heavy 3 tier ladder about is hard work, you are not always raising and lowering it in ideal conditions.
Trad window cleaning is also victim to RSI, and I have arthritic fingers from the constant knocking after scrimming thousands of georgian window panes.
My knees were also badly damaged from working off a ladder...and that one was a more insidious injury, cumulative after many years of resting knees against the rungs, very little weight, you don't even notice it when you are working.
On some of the larger offices I do, I way exceed what are obviously the recommended repetitive lifting weights, but when I have used a gym for instance I totally blow them out of the water.
When I'm using the pole, at any height I am continually changing hands, and the height and angle you are working at changes constantly too, so although you must be lifting weights above recommanded guidelines, there is constant variety....I think!!
Some jobs or tasks leave you locked in position...typing long posts on here for instance! Using a computer mouse causes problems too, and ditto texting on a mobile phone...I've got tennis bloody elbow from that >:(  (really)

But whether we like it or not, and whether or not it is fair, working off ladders is going to be increasingly frowned upon, I hope they never get banned, I don't want the likes of Squeaky and others like him to change over to WFP and forego their ladders! From a very selfish point of view, such and action would end out forcing the more profitable jobs down in price, and I don't want that!

One good thing about going over to WFP....

It has made me far more aware when working off a ladder (not that it happens very often) I am not at all complacent now, not that I ever thought I was mind, but when you are using it day in and day out, you cannot help but become complacent and blase.
In a hurry?
You will almost run up that ladder, step onto ledges with one foot still on the ladder, reach that little bit firther rather than move the ladder to get at that one bit in the top corner, and so on.
So I would now say that as a result of going WFP I am now far safer when I do use the ladder.

Mattstanley mentions about window cleaners working off ladders and being of short duration, sorry, but nothing could be further from the truth, lets assume you have a nice compact round and work a 7 hour day, 3 and a half hours are going to be spent climbing up and down a ladder and working off it, every week you are spending hour after hour working up a ladder it is long duration not short.
Just because it takes us a minute and a half or so to cleaning the average window doesn't mean that what we do is of short duration, it isn't because it is continual throughout the day.

That'll do for no....I think the RSI is setting in from all this typing¬!  ;D
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

mattstanley

Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2007, 08:16:42 pm »
Hi Ian

It is true that those who use ladders regularly spend a lot of time up a ladder, but for the purposes of a risk assessment, the use of ladder at each window is (usually) of short duration, which the HSE acknowledge does have a bearing on things - eg. tying a ladder in up top is not practicable as it will take as long to tie the ladder in as it does to clean the window.

As I say, I have no axe to grind as I use both wfp and ladders.  Just wanted to underscore the point that H&S for window cleaners is more than just the working at height regs - everything has to be taken into account.  We should have been doing risk assessments before the woking at height regs - particularly if we employ people - and these should have taken into account all relevant regulations.

Matt  :)

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2007, 08:31:15 pm »
Matt,
Only time for the briefest of replies (er indoors is avin' a pop :-\)

As I understand it, from the point of short duration windows cleaners cannot get away with that as a reason, purely because of the point I already made.

but that is the problem with legislation such as this, it's so long winded each can find justification and interpretation for their own point of view.

Believe it or not, like you I have no axe to grind one way or tother...well, actually I do, to be honest I deeply resent the nanny state and it's continual and increasing intrusion into all aspects of our lives.

what we do is manual work, and manual work will always entail risk.

Once you start attempting to reduce risk-a lofty and very sensible aim of course-there is always another step that can be taken, it might only be a tiny step, why hardy much change at all, but it grows and grows, and there is always sensible justification for these little steps.

On here I might enjoy the debate, or saying something to get squeaky hammering away over his keyboard, but ultimately I don't like being told how to climb a ladder by someone who has probably never worked off one in his life before.

(this for me is a short reply ;D Small wonder I've RSI in my wrists)

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2007, 08:36:53 pm »
"eg. tying a ladder in up top is not practicable as it will take as long to tie the ladder in as it does to clean the window."
Use a limpit, and leave it attached to the ladder all day, best £100 we ever spent years ago.

idealrob

mattstanley

Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2007, 08:39:34 pm »
Hi Ian
I agree, the regs are open interpretation and that's the problem.  We need definitive guidance from HSE - much as they have with the construction industry.
One day, I guess  :-\  In the meantime, we all need to take care in all aspects.
Thanks, Ian.
Matt.

seanmcshane

Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2007, 10:22:04 pm »
what is a limpit?

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2007, 10:54:23 pm »
a limpit is a device that fastens to the top of the ladder and secures it to stop it moving sideways

idealrob

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 25385
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2007, 11:13:58 pm »
Like D Salkfield I said lock it - like D Salkfield I'm now joining in.


Don't forget the insurance angle:

If you've got a big claim they'll use the fact that you've used the wrong equipment (in their barrister's opinion) to reduce or make void their payout.

And if you're sat gibbering in your wheelchair drinking from a baby cup who are you going to call as your expert witness? Squeaky? Me?

Choose wisely oh newbies!

It's a game of three halves!

seanmcshane

Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2007, 04:30:27 am »
oh- a stand off ! Great piece of kit.

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2007, 12:38:25 am »
no not a stand off, a limpit, a standoff usually doesnt have wheels, and is approved by HSE
a
idealrob

seanmcshane

Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2007, 06:25:01 am »
just found this:

http://www.smithslimpit.co.uk/

well what is it then? It is a Stand off !
A stand off is approved by the HSE as it offers stability to the head of a ladder, preventing twisting and sideways movement.
A bag of sand slung over the bottom rungs would also be approved.

The wheels on the limpit facilitate positioning of the ladder which might help the user in terms of manual handling.
They also act as stability devices when positioned against the wall in exactly the same way as the rubber pads on a stand off.

Looks good though and easy to put on. Mine bolts onto the rungs.

idealrob

  • Posts: 666
Re: Using Ladders for Window Cleaning
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2007, 11:15:16 pm »
It insnt clased as a standoff, its classed as a secure means of fixing by HSE,  and having used one for over 17 years , the confidence it gives you is fantastic, i am not getting it an argument about standoffs, all i know is these are ok with hse. i only use them at home as we dont use ladders at home for a quick jobs etc

idealrob