[RAHomeServices]

Can anyone tell me how you can justify using ladders for cleaning 1st floor windows and above in your risk assessments when the safest way is WFP. We have had numerous discussions with HSE and we cannot justify using ladders on any of our properties even for the short duration of time they are used.

[Neil Williams]

I think you've answered your own statement/question there.
The only 1st floor windows we can justify ladder usage is on old and I mean old leaded windows.

[seanmcshane]

if you do not have a WFP and use ladders safely and with safety devices where necessary, you can use ladders to clean 1st floor windows. There is no need to do a risk assessment in writing unless you have more than 5 employees.
Ladders are not banned.

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

MODS

Lock it.......................
PLEASE

David

[windows_chepstow]

if you do not have a WFP and use ladders safely and with safety devices where necessary, you can use ladders to clean 1st floor windows.

Show where it says the above in the regulations:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf

(You won't be able to because you're incorrect).

There is no need to do a risk assessment in writing unless you have more than 5 employees.

Incorrect also.  You're confusing a risk assessment with a safety policy.

Ladders are not banned.

Correct (nearly).  They can only be used as a last resort.

To David,

Sorry, mate; I hate it when people state stuff that's just plain wrong.

[poleman]

The vagueness surrounding the WAHR, specifically the reasonably practicable part regarding use of ladders

The wording reasonably practicable may well fail employees and employers as a defence following an accident & may well renderd ladders virtually useless.

And with the Eurpean Commission taking the goverment to court over its implementation of EU directive 89/391/EEC, all that may change   


Andy

[windows_chepstow]

And with the Eurpean Commission taking the goverment to court over its implementation of EU directive 89/391/EEC, all that may change   

Andy

Andy,

You wouldn't have a link to any news articles regarding this would you?  I think I've heard it (maybe it was you) mentioned before.

However, there's a lot going on in government at the moment with wars and political manouvring regarding whose going to be living at No 10 Downing Street; so I wouldn't hold my breath that something radical is going to change. 

I reckon in the scale of governmental priorities, challenging this regulation comes just after ordering some more carbon paper.

Also, I've read from the FWC that come Spring, the regulations with regard to window cleaners will be more heavily policed and the time between the policy introduction and this Spring has been time to enable window cleaners to transfer to WFP.

Personally though, I don't care.  I'm getting a van mount system!

[poleman]

Sent details 

Andy

[AuRavelling79]

MODS

Lock it.......................
PLEASE

David

Seconded!

[Londoner]

The question is why would you want to use a ladder when you say yourself that WFP is better.
Having been using a WFP for six month or so now I would NEVER go back to lugging a chuffing great ladder around when the alternative is a lightwieght pole.

Forget all the old  WFP v Trad stuff I don't want to get sucked in to all that. I am talking simply about making a job harder than it needs to be.

[seanmcshane]

Tosh;

Ladders can be used:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm

The head of the department issued that statement to dispel the MYTH about a ban.
If windows on a property are liable to leak if WFP is used, then that is a site feature which will justify the use of a ladder.
Use safety devices when and where necessary.

Risk assessment? I`m not confused.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/step4.htm

you DO NOT have to write out your risk assessment if you have fewer than 5 employees.
You still do one in your mind as most people do automatically on a new job, to ensure you have identified any possible risks and take steps to minimise the chances of those risks leading to an accident.

Ladders are NOT banned.

not nearly right?  that is 100% right.

I go to a property, look at 10 aged, leaded windows on a first floor, decide that they cannot be cleaned with WFP as the site features render such use impractical in that the windows are likely to leak.
The surrounding ground areas are solid/safe to place the foot of a ladder, I use a specific window cleaning ladder with safety, rubber block attached to head of ladder. Placed correctly into the window area, the rubber block prevents sideways movement.
Each window can be safely reached from a position on the extended ladder where I will not have to reach.
Each ladder pitch will be of short duration.
I use appropriate tools to allow hands free climbing and 3 points of contact with ladder when cleaning.
I have identified risks and by using appropriate and safe equipment and procedures, minimised the risks.
I have not written the assessment down.
I have not used WFP.

If you hate it when people state stuff that is "wrong??"
make sure you are right hey?

[simon knight]

I think you've answered your own statement/question there.
The only 1st floor windows we can justify ladder usage is on old and I mean old leaded windows.

I would have thought that's where wfp would come into it's own.

As for the justification of using ladders: Where I live and work in Putney SW London there are numerous wc's and in the 19 years I've lived here I can honestly say that not once ever have I seen wfp's being used. Why? 2 reasons. 1) 95% of the parking is for residents only and even then they can seldom park outside their own house (more often than not they even have to park in the next street and that's only if their permit covers that street). Very very few have off-street parking.

2) 99% of the houses are terraces and access to the back is usually always via the house itself (in cases where there is access to the back it's through an alley which is usually blocked with various household debris and therefore impassable).

wfp is a great system if your work is in suburbia where the houses generally have off-street parking. But in my area it's (alas ) not remotely viable and if, as, and when the HSE or EU commission ban the use of ladders 100's of SW London w/c's  will be out of a job.

All manual jobs have a degree of risk and the HSE's role is to legislate/advise to minimise that risk not destroy peoples livelyhoods.

I work on my own and it's up to me to access the risk of doing a particular house and if I decide the risk is acceptable then it's up to me and none of the business of interfering busybodies who want to run my life and working practices.

[C Senor]

Believe it or not, i actually LIKE using ladders !!

I even carry my triple when i don't need to, it keeps me fit and healthy.

I really wish people would leave this subject alone, if someone like me wants to use ladders then for gods sake let me ! Surely its up to me. And, no i've never even come close to an accident.

I really can't see the problem.

[windows_chepstow]

Risk assessment? I`m not confused.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/step4.htm

you DO NOT have to write out your risk assessment if you have fewer than 5 employees.

Sean,

Good post and you're right on this aspect:

Risk assessment? I`m not confused.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/step4.htm

you DO NOT have to write out your risk assessment if you have fewer than 5 employees.

and I was wrong; you have my sincere apologies.

Also you're right on some other minor points that I didn't disagree with anyway.  If you can't do a job from the ground, then yes, ladders are allowed; but they have to be used in such a manner that takes time and is too slow to make ROUTINE window cleaning profitable.

PWC Magazine succinctly put it when they said, 'Window cleaners shouldn't just be plonking their ladders up against walls' (or words to that effect). 

After you've worked through the heirachy of safer options (such as WFP) and you find you still must use a ladder, then yes you can use them.  But then they have to be used with a LSD (such as a Rojak) and tied off top or bottom.  That in itself rules ladders out for routine window cleaning (the examples you gave weren't routine).

Anyway, I've got to go out today (shopping and then dinner at Wor Lasses relations), but I'll explain myself more fully when I get the time; promise.

[matt]

the question must be asked

why would you want to use ladders when wfp does a similar job

but that might have been covered in the past

[Paul Coleman]

Risk assessment? I`m not confused.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/step4.htm

you DO NOT have to write out your risk assessment if you have fewer than 5 employees.

Sean,

Good post and you're right on this aspect:

Risk assessment? I`m not confused.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/step4.htm

you DO NOT have to write out your risk assessment if you have fewer than 5 employees.

After you've worked through the heirachy of safer options (such as WFP) and you find you still must use a ladder, then yes you can use them.  But then they have to be used with a LSD (such as a Rojak) and tied off top or bottom.  That in itself rules ladders out for routine window cleaning (the examples you gave weren't routine).

Tosh.  I'm going by memory (so may be wrong)  but I think there is a slight inaccuracy in the bit I've quoted.

You state  "But then they have to be used with a LSD (such as a Rojak) and tied off top or bottom. "

I think it should have said "But then they have to be used with a LSD (such as a Rojak) OR tied off top or bottom (or any other method of equivalent effectiveness).

To me this means ladder mitts all the time.  It also means a Rojak or similar under the ladder.  It can even mean a non slip cloth under the ladder because I have experimented and found that in some circumstances this can be more effective.  I know it looks unprofessional but if it is sometimes safer then I don't mind.  I have even heard of someone using a towel under their ladder though I've not tried this myself.

I only apply the above if I can't use WFP - which is very unusual.

There are a couple of situations which are a bit awkward for me.  This is where I need to go over a flat roof and down the other side for my access.  This means I am unable to place anything beneath my ladder (from on top of the roof).  On one of these I let the wall of next doors house "foot" the ladder for me.  On the other, I am putting it down onto grass.  Sometimes the act of the ladder sinking into the grass provides effective footing.  When the ground is dry, I tend to stand the ladder up straighter - just in case. I may be asking for garage keys for both these jobs.

[cybersye]

alright everyone,
i hav'nt read through all the posts as I find this topic a bit tedious. I just wanted to add although I'm wfp , i still carry a ladder on the van. I have several jobs where frames leak, windows left open, balconies,  or wfp just never does a satisfactory job ( no arguments please! it does happen sometimes ).
In my opinion wfp is a tool like any other, use whats appropriate for each job and just ensure you follow a safe work practice, and some common sense.
Simon

[Sir Squeaky]

Why don't wfp users (Tosh particularly) just shut up and do it their way.
If you don't like ladders, forget about them, and don't try to act the moral high ground.

Much like your pole system, it doesn't wash.

Nobody's going stop you using a ladder guys.
I've spoke to HSE people and used ladders in front of them.
They say it's been exagerrated to justify the wfp system.

It's not going to be a problem for you any time soon.

I promise, and you can quote me and abuse me if I'm wrong.
Trust me though, I'm not.

Ignore the scaremainers.
Now lock it. 

[poleman]

WFP V Ladders! does seem a motive subject! one thing I have notice! I use WFP ONLY and what hacks me off  is the ladder users taking the mick saying your not a real window cleaner  : Even had someone clean next door to me up a ladder shouting his mouth off   

Andy

[bumper]

EXCUSE ME I THOUGHT IT WAS AGAINST THE LAW TO USE LADDERS.
  I THOUGHT THE LAW THE LAW WON I THOUGHT THE LAW THE LAW WON
BREAKING THE LAW BREAKING THE LAW