[Paul Coleman]

Several weeks ago I was asked to quote for a pretty large job by my standards.  We are talking maybe £100 - £125.  I didn't feel totally at ease with it due to a couple of H & S issues.  Also, I do meet their current window cleaner around sometimes.  I am aware that he charges extremely high prices (way higher even than my new pricing structure) and I feel that offering a quote on work that he is doing is not unreasonable.  There would be no danger of things getting heavy between us but I don't want to pee someone off either.
Anyway, apart from that, the H & S issues are a bit tricky for me on the job as well.  Although it would be possible to overcome them, this would be prohibitively costly and impractical - apart from which, I do not have a MEWP licence anyway.
So, I typed out the following letter.  If anyone has any suggestions on improvements to it, or any suggestions on H & S, could you please say so?  Bear in mind that there is very little room to work around the pool mentioned.  Indeed, for some of the windows, I would need to overhang the water for a moment to gain proper access.  I will be cleaning at the neighbours' houses either side so it's not like I will never be meeting her again.
Thanks.
 
______________________________________________________________
 
Dear Mrs ******,
                 Thank you for your enquiry concerning a quotation for window cleaning several weeks ago.
     Firstly, my apologies for not getting back to you sooner.  I have had several things to think about regarding the carrying out of this work and wanted to be sure that I made the correct decision.
     I have decided not to give a quotation for the work.  This is for several reasons as stated below:
     I carried out a risk assessment and there are two particular areas of the job where I would be concerned for my personal safety.  These are (a) the access onto the flat roof above the swimming pool.  As the roof is “hipped”, the ladder angle required for access is prohibitive for me.  Although it is possible to dig the ladder into the grass, on experimenting with the climb, I did not feel comfortable with it. In any case, as I am rather overweight, I would have concerns about breaking a ridge tile on the hip as my ladder would need to rest upon it. (b)  The area around the swimming pool inside the building.  I am aware that the pool is 12 feet deep in places and, as a non-swimmer, I have to think of this in a similar manner as I would a 12 foot drop.  Although the above issues are not insurmountable, the costs would make it impractical (i.e. hoist onto flat roof and eyebolts and harness for the swimming pool.).  I realise that we did discuss the possibility of using my pole cleaning system around parts of the pool but, on reflection, I feel that I would need to lean over the water to get a proper working angle.
     I understand that your current window cleaner works as part of a two person team.  As a lone worker (and particularly as a non-swimmer), I do need to be more aware of potential hazards.  The more thought I have given to carrying out the work, the more concerned I have felt about it.  I’m sure that you would not want someone to do this work who felt uneasy about it - especially as you already have someone to carry it out.
     Thank you for your enquiry.
 
Regards,
Paul Coleman

[busydaffodil]

I've edited it to what I think would be ok.   Just my opinion though.



Dear Mrs ******,
                 Thank you for your enquiry concerning a quotation for window cleaning several weeks ago.
     Firstly, my apologies for not getting back to you sooner.  I have had several things to think about regarding the carrying out of this work and wanted to be sure that I made the correct decision.
     I have decided not to give a quotation for the work.  This is for several reasons; a;; of which are Health & Safety related.
     I carried out a risk assessment and there are two particular areas of the job where I would be concerned for my personal safety.  These are
(a) the access onto the flat roof above the swimming pool.  As the roof is “hipped”, the ladder angle required for access is prohibitive for me.  
(b)  The area around the swimming pool inside the building.  I am aware that the pool is 12 feet deep in places and, as a non-swimmer, I have to think of this in a similar manner as I would a 12 foot drop.  Although the above issues are not insurmountable, the costs would make it impractical (i.e. hoist onto flat roof and eyebolts and harness for the swimming pool.). 
    As a lone worker (and particularly as a non-swimmer), I do need to be more aware of potential hazards.  The more thought I have given to carrying out the work, the more concerned I have felt about it.  I’m sure that you would not want someone to do this work who felt uneasy about it - especially as you already have someone to carry it out.
     Thank you for your enquiry.
 
Regards,
Paul Coleman

[Trevor Knight]

Hi Shiner,

Couple of things:

1) If he charges a high rate why not allow for use of a small access machine to gain acess to the windows- They start at £110 for 3 days hire so you could look for other work where this machinery will be useful and incorporate all the work together.

2) There is no reason to discuss personal health issues as reasons to decline a quotation. The fact that you are using a ladder above a swimming pool with a 12ft drop should be reason alone that access machinery is required. I clean 3 hotels with swimming pool complexes and leaning on the roof using a ladder is a STRICT NO NO! H&S would have a field day if you had an accident let alone to personal injury risks? What are you writing when giving your risk assessment for allowing you to  operate in this manner?

3) Identify the REAL H&S issues to the client and point them out, the client may not have even been aware of such risks and would appreciate your advice and expertise with a potentially dangerous situation.

Whatever you decide I personally wouldn't decline an opportunity to quote, I would put together a professional package, highlighting all the risk areas along with method statements etc.... price it and deliver it. You may be surprised what will happen, more and more companies are becoming aware of the risks involved with window cleaning and the potential H&S issues. They may look at your quote, realise this is an area they need to concentrate on an it will put you in good stead for the future!

You know the way you wish to carry out the work so price it as it should be and don't try to match other window cleaners methods if they are not how you carry out your work normally.

[simon knight]

Hi Shiner (Happy New Year),

Aside from the H&S issues why, when she already has a w/c, is she asking you for a quote? It seems to me that she's just trying to get a dangerous job done cheaper.

If the other guy is charging a high rate it's probably because the job is even more hazardous than it looks.

[Paul Coleman]

I've edited it to what I think would be ok.   Just my opinion though.



Dear Mrs ******,
                 Thank you for your enquiry concerning a quotation for window cleaning several weeks ago.
     Firstly, my apologies for not getting back to you sooner.  I have had several things to think about regarding the carrying out of this work and wanted to be sure that I made the correct decision.
     I have decided not to give a quotation for the work.  This is for several reasons; a;; of which are Health & Safety related.
     I carried out a risk assessment and there are two particular areas of the job where I would be concerned for my personal safety.  These are
(a) the access onto the flat roof above the swimming pool.  As the roof is “hipped”, the ladder angle required for access is prohibitive for me.  
(b)  The area around the swimming pool inside the building.  I am aware that the pool is 12 feet deep in places and, as a non-swimmer, I have to think of this in a similar manner as I would a 12 foot drop.  Although the above issues are not insurmountable, the costs would make it impractical (i.e. hoist onto flat roof and eyebolts and harness for the swimming pool.). 
    As a lone worker (and particularly as a non-swimmer), I do need to be more aware of potential hazards.  The more thought I have given to carrying out the work, the more concerned I have felt about it.  I’m sure that you would not want someone to do this work who felt uneasy about it - especially as you already have someone to carry it out.
     Thank you for your enquiry.
 
Regards,
Paul Coleman

Thanks Lizzy.  I see you have removed a small portion of my letter.  It can be hard for me to find the balance between over explaining and appearing curt in a letter.  I mentioned the bit about being overweight and the ridge tile as I wanted to show that it was about the safety of the property as well as my own safety.  I also know that the current window cleaner is of small build.  Perhaps I will compromise on that one and restrict myself to just mentioning ridge tiles without the weight  

[Paul Coleman]

Hi Shiner,

Couple of things:

1) If he charges a high rate why not allow for use of a small access machine to gain acess to the windows- They start at £110 for 3 days hire so you could look for other work where this machinery will be useful and incorporate all the work together.

2) There is no reason to discuss personal health issues as reasons to decline a quotation. The fact that you are using a ladder above a swimming pool with a 12ft drop should be reason alone that access machinery is required. I clean 3 hotels with swimming pool complexes and leaning on the roof using a ladder is a STRICT NO NO! H&S would have a field day if you had an accident let alone to personal injury risks? What are you writing when giving your risk assessment for allowing you to  operate in this manner?

3) Identify the REAL H&S issues to the client and point them out, the client may not have even been aware of such risks and would appreciate your advice and expertise with a potentially dangerous situation.

Whatever you decide I personally wouldn't decline an opportunity to quote, I would put together a professional package, highlighting all the risk areas along with method statements etc.... price it and deliver it. You may be surprised what will happen, more and more companies are becoming aware of the risks involved with window cleaning and the potential H&S issues. They may look at your quote, realise this is an area they need to concentrate on an it will put you in good stead for the future!

You know the way you wish to carry out the work so price it as it should be and don't try to match other window cleaners methods if they are not how you carry out your work normally.

Thanks for your response Trevor.  I do need to clarify the situation as I have left you thinking of the job rather differently that it actually is.  Although there are potential hazards, they are not as severe as I have led you to imagine.  Also, although I didn't mention it in my previous post, the potential customer is a bit concerned about the "politics" (her word) because her current window cleaner also cleans a block of flats for her.

Regarding 1)  .  Apart from me not having a MEWP licence anyway what you suggest probably would not be practical.  The job is out in the sticks and there is no other work nearby where it would be necessary to use a MEWP.  Although I would be working at properties either side of the one in question,  they can easily be done with WFP - indeed one of them is single storey.  Also, there would be issues about how to move the MEWP even if I did have other work that required it.  We would literally be talking about one lift to set me onto a flat roof and, after a few minutes, the reverse journey.  The cost of the MEWP would be prohibitive in proportion to the job cost.  Adding the cost on would result in the current window cleaner continuing to do the job I'm sure.

2)  This is where I think there has been a big misunderstanding concerning how the job looks. Perhaps I should have explained it better.  For a start, it is a swimming pool in an extension on the side of a private house rather than a commercial venture.  The only potential ladder climb would be onto a flat roof of the building that houses the pool.  This would be to clean a couple of small atriums.  However, as the roof is hipped all round, it would be necessary to climb the ladder at 45 degree ancle with the lower end dug into the grass and the upper end resting on ridge tiles.  The only other way of getting up there would be by MEWP of some kind and stepping off onto the flat roof.  This would be all the MEWP would be used for so probably impractical.  The 12 foot "drop" referred to is not an actual drop but would need to be treated as such by me.  If you look at my post, you will see it was a reference to water depth (at one side of the pool).  As a non-swimmer, I would need to think of it as a 12 foot drop.  Actually, I can swim a bit but have never tried it in overalls so would not trust myself with the extra clothing weight.
The situation is that the windows at the side of the pool (inside) require cleaning.  The work room is very tight and, due to some awkward maneouvering, I feel that there would be some risk of falling in.  The risk is a smallish one but is nevertheless present - particularly as the floor around the pool is likely to be wet.  There may be a better way but I feel that there could be a need to drill eyebolts into the wall to which a harness could be fixed.  This would mean going through some pretty wall tiles and it is a domestic property.  I am sure that there is no way they would be prepared to do this - especially as they currently have someone who is prepared to carry out the work.
As for the roof again, I have used ladders at 45 degree angles before (whilst dug in) but not in recent years.  I did climb up to test it out when looking at the job and I get get up onto the flat roof this way.  But doing it this way on a regular basis is perhaps not such a good idea.
3)  It is a domestic property rather than commercial so this may not apply.

Sorry not to have made it clearer before and thanks for the feedback.

[Paul Coleman]

Hi Shiner (Happy New Year),

Aside from the H&S issues why, when she already has a w/c, is she asking you for a quote? It seems to me that she's just trying to get a dangerous job done cheaper.

If the other guy is charging a high rate it's probably because the job is even more hazardous than it looks.

She just wants it cheaper I think - though she didn't directly say so.  I genuinely don't think she was aware of the hazards until I discussed them with her.  The other guy just isn't so H & S concious as me.

[JohnL]

Another sight change I would introduce

   .   .   .   I have decided not to give a quotation for the work.   .  .  . 

Replace with  :-

'' For the following reasons I would like to be excused from submitting a Quotation at this time.  ''


JohnL

[Pureandclean]

any possibility of getting to the windows in question, from the inside ?
Or of offering a quote for all the other windows, and leaving the difficult ones, customer could be happy if your quote is significantly cheaper than present cleaner.

Blessings,

Graeme

[Paul Coleman]

Another sight change I would introduce

   .   .   .   I have decided not to give a quotation for the work.   .  .  . 

Replace with  :-

'' For the following reasons I would like to be excused from submitting a Quotation at this time.  ''


JohnL

Possibly, though I wouldn't want it too soound too grovelly.

[Paul Coleman]

any possibility of getting to the windows in question, from the inside ?
Or of offering a quote for all the other windows, and leaving the difficult ones, customer could be happy if your quote is significantly cheaper than present cleaner.

Blessings,

Graeme

I don't think either of those are an option really.  The awkward windows are in fact two atriums on the swimming pool roof.  The awkward bit is getting up there.  They are fixed so no chance from the inside.  Also, the other awkward windows are around the pool itself.  There is very little work room and a danger of falling in (though the current guy manages OK but that's his choice).
I'm not going to do this job.  I'm uncomfortable with it and I need to listen to those nagging doubts.
Thanks everyone.

[rosskesava]

Hi Paul

I've just read all the above.

I think your original letter was fine and very polite and was acurate in terms of your wanting to do the job or not. The fact you expressed uncertainty means to me, don't do it. If you decide to do the job, every time you do it, your uncertainty will be an added risk factor and will be never far from your mind. Why add risk to the risk factor?

Also, I think it's simple, you don't want to do the job and that is it and what you wrote explained it perfectly.

The explaining of why is also simple, 'I don't feel safe'. That's all that is needed. That you wrote and they are simple words and most people understand them however written and what you wrote said that and more importantly, it was your words.

I think your letter was the best. Forget all this, that and the other. You have given your reason and that is it.

It's easy to worry about writing what is best and then to spend so much time with this issue and that issue but if you are not going to do the job, then a simple and well constructed 'why not' is all that is needed. As far as I can see, you done that.

Cheers

[Paul Coleman]

Hi Paul

I've just read all the above.

I think your original letter was fine and very polite and was acurate in terms of your wanting to do the job or not. The fact you expressed uncertainty means to me, don't do it. If you decide to do the job, every time you do it, your uncertainty will be an added risk factor and will be never far from your mind. Why add risk to the risk factor?

Also, I think it's simple, you don't want to do the job and that is it and what you wrote explained it perfectly.

The explaining of why is also simple, 'I don't feel safe'. That's all that is needed. That you wrote and they are simple words and most people understand them however written and what you wrote said that and more importantly, it was your words.

I think your letter was the best. Forget all this, that and the other. You have given your reason and that is it.

It's easy to worry about writing what is best and then to spend so much time with this issue and that issue but if you are not going to do the job, then a simple and well constructed 'why not' is all that is needed. As far as I can see, you done that.

Cheers

Thanks for that Ross.  I will be sending the letter as I have written it but with a couple of small alterations.  That job would nag away at me each time it was due.  Although the odds are against me having an accident there, they are much higher than with other jobs.