[poleman]

yes my ad    YES VERY MUCH SO keep the prices up, to cheap = bad work= bad for the WFP Industry, i did also tell bruce this, for the record i got my WFP System in summer of 2002.

Andy

[elfords]

All replies welcome and noted, thank you and I will be happy to reply as soon as I get a chance especially seeing as such a lot has been said, which after all is the whole point of these forums, say what you think and let others speak freely also. Why do some people have to take things quite so personaly is beyond me all I am trying to do is help those that are open minded enough to know that they do not know it all, myself included, but however like it or not the fact is I do have a good level of common sense, as well as intelligence, experience and a good business to show for it, but I do not feel the need to boast as a way of supporting my point, you know what they say about those who feel the need to boast.

[Old_Master]

Hi Martin
Bruce was one of my first customers I am sure he bought in March 98.
However the point is Gary must have made a mistake, I think in saying he has 6 years experiance of WFP if you have only been using for 4 years and you believe you were one of the first in the area- I was sure Gary contacted me about three years ago still thats not important.
Martin it's nice to know that you learned from Mark Groves (who trained with us free of charge for a week  ) (We still give purhasers the option to train with us as long as they like until they feel confident to use the system- strangly most refuse training) especially as all us WFP manufacturers are always getting hammered by people who think we are just after their money.
I am sure Mark passed on a lot of good pointers that he learned from us. He trained in the early days when we were still learning ourselves.
Glyn

[The_Fed_Man]

Hi Glyn,

Very interesting, I didn't know Bruce had an Omnipole system first. To be honest we never see them, we're always around town and often spotted.

Haven't spoken to Mark in a while, I would think he's often in your neck of the woods, last time we spoke he was on system no 5, mind you he doesn't half tout for work and covers a wide area.

Regarding being 'hammered for taking money' I think that is a small minded view, WFP has been very good for my business, if you've got the work to pay for them they're not that expensive over time, unless you have the nickel and dime mentality. (Yes there are more expensive than Pulex rubber)

Martin

[Old_Master]

Cheers Martin

[poleman]

Well I could be wrong but did he not have a reach and wash first , he then got one of your systems glyn,
but when i last talked to him he had a hot water immersion heater system like this in the back of his van ftp://http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/domestic_hot_water_systems.htm but he does have 2 systems know any way.

andy

[elfords]

Hi Glyn,

Its a shame that there is so much point scoring going on that many have really lost sight of the point of my first post, to help others, to which I will add further points when I can be bothered as it seems that some are more concerned with discrediting my honest view rather than looking at it constructively.

Just for the record I would have originally contacted Omnipole just over four and a half years ago and I decided not to use your services due to my perception of your customer service policy and customer after sales service at that time circa 99/2000, which is of paramount importance to the cost effective weekly operation in using a wfp system, hence one of the reasons why I went down the self build route I did, and I am so glad I did, especially knowing what I know now. Also just for the record I was subcontracting work to Aquapole during his initial years in 98/99 and set my own system up in 99/2000, therefore as I said in my original post I am in my sixth/seventh year having thought again about it (just to be perdantic about it as point scoring seems about the sum unfortunately of some of the replies to this post) of using wfp techniques.

[Old_Master]

Gary
Everthing you have written hasnt been correct. You accuse me of being nit picking on questioning your post the following however speaks for itself.

was subcontracting work to Aquapole during his initial years in 98/99

So infact you were using an Omnipole system to do your work, and earning presumably a good living from it. And you are not as experianced as you first claimed.

My Credentials – Am currently in my 11th year of window cleaning and 6th year of using wfp systems and methods. Using my engineering background as firstly a toolmaker then a commercial buyer I have been able to design and purchase many of the components that make up my two mobile systems and one main workshop based static system for our wfp operation. This has been of great benefit in helping my understanding of the systems and associated problems that go with the daily running of such an operation/service. This way of doing things was also born out of my lack of confidence in the suppliers around during my earlier years of explorations into this method of cleaning windows. Customer base includes all types from domestics, commercial & industrial.

The only problem with the above is you took a concept that cost Both OTT and us at Omnipole thousands of pounds to develop used it for two years then pirated it and now you are attacking WFP manufacturers for totally changing the window cleaning industry.
Did you ever think about a system of cleaning windows without ladders prior to seeing our systems - NO can be your only answer.  
You talk about your years of engineering but that hasnt helped you think of an original idea, it helped you copy other peoples. You happily used our system to build up your wfp buisness.
To sum up your  point  :

I put the blame squarely at the door of the wfp suppliers overselling there products. This of course will only ultimately result in us all losing out as no customer likes to be mislead or taken for a fool and many will feel this way if we are overselling what wfp services will achieve.

WHO HAS LOST OUT -
I would like to hear from window cleaners on this message board that have lost out.

Most if not all  are earning much more money and with many more customers.
So maybe its only you Gary that feels you have lost out, Thats not wfp manufacturers  fault as you didnt buy your system from one. You can only blaim us for inventing an easier way to clean windows.
And without us designing and promoting our systems you would still be climbing a ladder.

HOW ARE THE CUSTOMERS LOOSING OUT?
They are getting both their frames and windows cleaned by the vast majority of wfp users.

What is this terrible disaster you think will befall the window cleaning industry - ALL DUE TO FRAMES BEING CLEANED
In fact In thinking about what you have written and the many replys you have had you appear to be the only person that still thinks frames cannot be cleaned.

I went down the self build route I did, and I am so glad I did, especially knowing what I know now.

What you should have said after getting a sub contractor that happily carried out my pole work for two years using a WFP manufacturers equipment, I decided to take the work back and went the self build route.

What is it you know now? You started your post by attacking wfp manufacturers for overselling! Are  you now suggesting some  sinister conspiracy against you?

I am realy no longer sure what your post is about, you claim it is to help other users from loosing work through overselling.
Many of us have proved to you that we clean window frames but you say we are not realy cleaning them, This has become like an episode of X files.

Now it could be that I will be percieved to be rude, in my defence of the original Wfp manufacturers, but please remember without us the pole system would not be in use at all. And all window cleaners would now be worried how they would cope without ladders when the WAHR come into force.

I note with interest on your website you claim to use "The Reach & Wash System " (Trading Off :a legal offence)) ionics (OTT) trade mark so perhaps the manufacturers are not so bad if you choose to use their valued trade name, and gain customers from their marketing £s
You also use Tuckerpoles photographs as if they are your own (theft of Copyright).

Your posting is hypocrytical and I shall comment no more on this matter as you have contradicted yourself time after time yet you accuse WFP manufacturers of  dishonesty!  

I am still not sure why or what you blaim us for. Unless you are unhappy at earning more money in less hours using the dreaded WFP manufacturers poles.

Glyn
Omnipole

[replacement]

I noticed alot of window cleaners have the reach and wash words on there web sites.

Justin

Ps Goes to check his site, but i am pretty sure we anit.

[elfords]

To All Respondents,

Firstly I would suggest anyone who wants to get an objective view of this post starts from the beginning and reads it all again, and then read the following:

It just goes to show how easy it is to be so mis-understood as a post progresses and this is not the first time I have seen things get like this on these forums, my whole basic point was really saying that wfp is a great way of cleaning windows as it has worked for me but it is not perfect in every way, and wfp suppliers are generally very economical with the truth and telling you the working facts needed to run an operation on a daily basis, if some of you choose to take this so personally then that`s a shame, I never singled out anyone personally at the beginning (except Andy - and  that was just a friendly bit of bait to a local competitor who bit so easily, so chill and give me a call if you like it was nothing personal, honest) and the fact that I have suggested a difference of opinion does not mean it is wrong, there is always more than one way to skin a cat and I think I have enough experience to be considered an expert. I have obviously hit a nerve with some of you and you choose to try and dis-credit me for having a different view to yours and it is therefore pointless any of us waisting anymore time on this post. It just goes to show that an old fashioned chat on the phone may sometimes be the best way of communicating. As I originally said I am a sincere guy with my own opinions and should be respected for that, however, maybe I need to work on communicating better     or just not bothering to post and let others get slated for an opinion, as if it rocks the steady boat then look out.

My Final Word

I say to wfp suppliers in general keep up the good work but concentrate a little more on the customer service side.

To my local competitors I will see you around and be happy to join you for a beer if your buying   its not war just a little friendly nudge and we all need to work together for our professions reputation. So I will gladly take your calls if you wish to pick up the phone.

To everyone else on here I say you obviously need to make up your own minds on wfp but be open minded as it is has been shown here, quite clearly that there is no one way that suits all situations or operators and you will go home every night not really knowing how well all the windows have dried, unlike the traditional ways, and all you can do is work out a way that keeps you sleeping easy each night knowing that you have tried your best. There are an awfull lot of things you will need to consider before you really know the best method for you. The methods I use produce good consistent results on all types of contracts, and I too have many happy customers, however some dry spotless some will not but I am honest enough to say that I cannot vouch for every window always being spotless as I know many will not, as you will also see if you were to check every window you clean over the next six years, but no one is going to be able to do that are they so thats basically the nature of the beast when you change over to this method of cleaning, you are never really sure of all the windows results after cleaning.

Thanks for most of the comments and best wishes to all

[matt]

Gary

Ive read your posts with interest, and they have been informative, they really have, its nice that someone is honest that they cannot say a window is "spotless" all the time

[elfords]

Thanks Matt  

[Philip Hanson]

I noticed alot of window cleaners have the reach and wash words on there web sites.

Justin

Ps Goes to check his site, but i am pretty sure we anit.

Again we come across the point about using the term "Reach and Wash"

If we use the term on our marketing info, we risk legal action by the trademark owner (In this case Ionic Systems)

We wouldnt dare go around in a van with "coca cola" printed on the side unless we had the company's permission.  The same applies here.

Put simply, if you dont have an Ionic system, you are not licenced to use the term "reach and wash" no matter how good it sounds.

[elfords]

Hi Phil,

Its been on there for years and I use eight of there poles so I am reaching and washing with there reach & wash poles! So am I or am I not a reach & wash man. To me it really is not that important either way if I am asked to remove it by Ionics it is not a problem and besides if someone asks me about my system they get told the truth. It was just brought up in this post as a way of dis-crediting me, I will let the jury or Ionics decide if I am guilty of a terrible crime  

[dave_carroll]

blast!
   i've just gone and left my THERMOS flask in my JCB

          swamps  

[Old_Master]

Gary
I think I went a bit crazy. Your right it is easy to get carried away, I am happy to delete the my messages from the post if you wish. No hard feelings
Glyn

[elfords]

Thanks Glyn re above and my email to you  

[matt]

this "trading off" is a strange one

i know how it works, and it still seems a little too much

I could add on my website "i use a pole to 'reach and wash' the windows"

would this be against the "rules"

just out of interest like

[kevinmchugh]

really enjoyed reading all the replies to garys topic.
(i know what you were getting at mate).I`d just like to say ,I AM THE GREATEST WINDOW CLEANER EVER,I HAVE THE MOST EXPERIENCE, I AM THE FASTEST, I HAVE THE BEST POLE SYSTEM, EVERYBODY WANTS ME TO CLEAN THEIR WINDOWS,EVEN IF I DO LEAVE A SMEAR,IT LOOKS LIKE A BLOODY WORK OF ART,IT AIN`T EASY BEING THIS GREAT.

Good grief !!!!!!!!!

chill out folks

[pauly]

Good to see there are so many guys with wfp in poole and bournemouth i have been using a tucker pole system for 4 years in poole and at first had a lot of problems but you soon work out what you need to do. Even now i clean some windows and they still spot.
So now on a new job i just tell the customer they may get some spotting at first but it will get better and then you dont get any problems.. easy