[elfords]

WFP AN Open & Honest View From An Experienced User

First of all a little about me;

My Credentials – Am currently in my 11th year of window cleaning and 6th year of using wfp systems and methods. Using my engineering background as firstly a toolmaker then a commercial buyer I have been able to design and purchase many of the components that make up my two mobile systems and one main workshop based static system for our wfp operation. This has been of great benefit in helping my understanding of the systems and associated problems that go with the daily running of such an operation/service. This way of doing things was also born out of my lack of confidence in the suppliers around during my earlier years of explorations into this method of cleaning windows. Customer base includes all types from domestics, commercial & industrial.

My reasons for writing this article – To give others in my profession the opportunity to learn from my experiences so far, without any ulterior motives (i.e. wfp supplier) as I feel having read many of these posts since the start of these forums there seems to be a lot of genuine enthusiasm, of which I applaud, however there also seems to be a great deal of overselling of what a wfp system can achieve, which I put the blame squarely at the door of the wfp suppliers overselling there products. This of course will only ultimately result in us all losing out as no customer likes to be mislead or taken for a fool and many will feel this way if we are overselling what wfp services will achieve.

Now the main part – this is only my opinion make of it what you will and I hope it gives some of you something to think about. I do not wish to get into a debate with anyone as I am not interested in that its just an opinion that I happen to be happy with, so good luck to all those current and aspiring wfp operators, it will be worth the investment especially if you go into it with open eyes.

The main thing with using wfp systems is that it is designed to aid cleaning windows in the safest way possible, of which there is no doubt that this is true, secondary to this it also allows you to clean previously in-accessible windows, again a big plus and finally it allows your company too take on work that you probably would never have been able to even consider before, generally speaking of course. Now if you have traditional window cleaning experience it is definitely a big plus in your favour because, depending on your experience, you will still need to have a great understanding of all that is involved in this business to get the best and most out of any wfp system, however having said that just because you have all this traditional experience do not expect it to be oh so easy in comparison, because it definitely is not. It is a completely different way of going about achieving the same results that you may have done for many years before using your tried and tested methods, so look forward to a very steep learning curve with a great mixture of results and frustrations. This comes mainly from learning effectively a whole new job and having to get to grips with a lot more technology together with all the extra costs that this will bring.

Now the two biggest things that really annoy me about this whole industry and the overselling of this cleaning method by the wfp suppliers which is coming across loud and clear thro inexperience and understandable confusion about this method from new, con`t ......

[elfords]

operators on these forums and competitors local to me (Hi Andy!) and nationwide (I here some of you saying scared of the competition, eh, far from it, but what I am trying to help avoid is what damage overselling will do to a new cleaning method  which is still in its infancy, to which we will all lose out) is the following two biggest over sold statements I see and read time and time again:

1. WFP pole cleaning will leave your windows spotless

This is absolutely rubbish, wfp cleaning will not leave your windows spotless guaranteed! In fact on some it will leave them positively spotty, as there are so many variables that will cause spotting to which many are out of your control, this you will learn believe me! However if your lucky some windows will dry completely spotless and if that is the case pat yourself on the back and walk away thinking great, but most the time this will not be the case, and those that say otherwise are either wfp suppliers, in-experienced operators that have been over sold the idea and still believe it, or are just living in the clouds and away with the fairies.

Now what it should read is something like this (just for example to get my point across)  

WFP pole cleaning is the method of choice in today’s health & safety conscience society and cleans your windows to a great standard time and time again

The above is not misleading but is of course open to individuals interpretation so the customer would at least not feel they have been taken for a fool and will feel they have got exactly what they have paid for, but as we all know you will never please them all but at least you are selling an honest and achievable service, to which the customer has no real come back other than there own expectations being higher than yours to which, unfortunately  you will sometimes never achieve customer satisfaction.

2. With WFP we can clean your frames as well

There is so much expectation in this kind of statement that there will inevitably be many unhappy customers as well as some happy ones depending on there expectations and method used to clean the frames.

In order to clean frames properly you need to scrub them thoroughly from top to bottom including sills, that is what any reasonable customer would expect if you are going to sell your service by saying we clean your frames as well, some will say free of charge etc, which of course is rubbish as well, unless you think your customers are fools. Well there are several things wrong with going down this route. Firstly the whole principal behind wfp system is to clean the windows with a clean brush, using clean pure water, baring in mind what I said in my first point above about `spotless results` how can you possibly hope to achieve this if you are sending your nice clean brush into all those little nooks and crannies around all the various types of frames out there and where all the muck and spiders webs are waiting since the last month/s clean? No chance I say unless of course you do any of the following:

[elfords]

·      Only clean part of the frames keeping away from those nooks and crannies, very difficult to do above 1st floor as well as risking contaminating the brush to leave a poor finish on glass and is that really cleaning frames, not in my books
·      Only clean the glass with the brush keeping it as clean as possible and thereby achieving the best result you can hope for if all else is done correctly, resulting in customer happy as not mislead in that frames are being cleaned when they are not really.
·      Or you can do as we do and clean the frames with a completely separate pole and brush thereby being able to scrub the frames to a good standard as most customers would expect without worrying about contaminating the brush and then clean just the glass afterwards giving yourself the best possible chance of a good finish. More work time, charged accordingly giving best results everyone a winner except the wfp supplier because one easy operation using the same pole sounds a lot more attractive to those unsure, or those customers thinking there customers are happy with a sub-standard finish, and only experience will prove me right in this for those that disagree.


In conclusion, I know all of you won`t agree with me as that’s life and business and I am happy in my belief and understanding of what is right in providing an open and honest service to which I have the results of a well established reputable business to prove this. I just hope the above provides some of you food for thought down this method of cleaning windows and that we are able to achieve most customers expectations in there understandable scepticism of a fast unfolding future in window cleaning, which could so easily be damaged by overselling what is really achievable. The customer of course will always ultimately decide and I for one will always benefit from a sound customer base that appreciates sound methods. If you do move into wfp you will not be sorry you took the step and you will be able to enjoy its benefits for years to come, until you win the lottery of course so good luck to all, which is meant with all sincerity from someone who feels passionately about his profession and wants to help influence the way wfp is perceived now and our future customers.

[The_Fed_Man]

I think as with most things you find out what works for you.  

Frequency and location can play a big part in results and time spent rinsing, obviously if you haven't charged enough in the first place you can't spend the time when it's needed, such as after a storm or heavy sea salt deposits, good reasons to not be tempted to work too cheap even though it's faster, you will spend longer on some jobs and need to go back to touch up on occasions.

Having said that we have found that you can clean most of the frame when cleaning and we avoid the problem areas. If you read between the lines of the advertising literature it does say can clean frames.  We find with our method spotting is minimal, not every window, but it does occur and you can't do anything about it on some types of glass.  But the overall standard is high.

They are not for every window but they are for most, and definitely safer and more cost effective than the alternatives. I wouldn't worry about the guy from Poole Gary, he's just using that ad to gain work, I bet it will read differently next year!

Buildings do improve the more you clean them as well.

[highwash]

a play on words is to be heeded here! I was involved in sales many years ago and if you are going to get into conflict over statements made in literature etc. ie "can" clean frames you are just going to lose customers. they are as astute as we are! Inform your future clients what you are going to do for them.
I tell my customers that their windows and frames are going to be WASHED and that they will see a difference straight away but  the real benefit will become apparent after 2 or 3 visits. by this time you should have their confidence in your ability. good luck Terry

[Old_Master]

Dont want to set the cat amongst the pigeons but our customers were over the moon with the cleaning of painted cladding - no different realy to cleaning window frames. The photos show before and after panels. The height was 50' and this is just a small area of the total job.





At the time doing this job in 2001 it was our best paying one off contract £12,000 for ten nights work for two men, at an important central London location.
Price included of course the cleaning the glazing which hadnt been cleaned for 15 years.
Sorry about the quality of the action photograph but this was taken in the middle of the night. I am confident we can clean most window frames.

[Craig_Mawlam]

Hi Glyn,

Your pictures are worth a thousand words! Often its not what you do, its how you do it that makes the difference.

Rgds
Craig

[CS_Win]

So how do they clean somthing like a petrol stations canapys (excuse the spelling) bearing in mine that they are right above the pumps and get a lot of contamanation from exhusts that a window woud'nt?

[CS_Win]

I should have said this before posting!! but thanks Gary for an upfront view, i bet there are loads of guys on this board that are conidering the investment! and just want to know the facts.

[Old_Master]

Absolutely no problem cleaning garage forecourt canopies.
I will post pictures doing just that at a Tesco garage in Camden Town,London- Probabily the buisiest area for traffic in London, so it was extremly dirty.  
We coned areas off to enable us to clean it.
We used traffic film remover to break down the organic contaminant first then pure water rinse.

Im  thinking I should set up a photographic how to do it! posting
Glyn
Omnipole

[elfords]

I never said you cannot clean frames, please read my post properly, re reply`s above and cleaning cladding is completely different to cleaning frames and glass as your customer looks thro glass not cladding which is basically the whole point of our profession, so sorry to point out the obvious but due to the wfp suppliers reply`s above I felt this was necessary.

As I also said in my original post I am not up for a big debate or argument I just wish we could all be a bit more honest and open about things and treat our customers the same as I have been without the bull and I am certainly no fool, this is not rocket science after all. See below

Clean pure water + high chance of contaminated dirty brush (clean frames with same brush as glass) = uncertain/ unreliable results.

If you take out the high chance part of above you stand a much better chance of getting reliable results time & time again, and that in my books improves the chance of this way of cleaning being much more satisfactory to a sceptical public. But as I said before this way (two operations & more equipment required) is not such a good selling point for the suppliers as if it could all be done in one operation, but I know what works best for the best results on all parts of the windows and it is just common sense, and customers have that too!

[Old_Master]

Hi Gary
you say you wish we could all be honest.
Well we honestly clean all the frames of our contracts every visit and we dont get any problems.
Ok so we manufacture pole systems but we also carry out hundreds of thousands of pounds a year of window cleaning work, through our seperate contract window cleaning company.
The only time a problem arises is if we get a new contract where the frames have not been regularly painted, We firstly explain to our customers that the frames are not great and we cannot guarantee a first class job the first visit.
On the first visit we go around the building two or three times cleaning the windows, frames and sills to remove the powdery deposits, spending time rinsing them thoroughly.
This is not a financial problem for us as we are only spending the same amount of time on site that we would have done before we used WFP.
What we end up with is delighted customers so even if their are some minor deposits on the glass they are more than happy with the whole appearance of the job. The next visit we throughly clean the frames,sills and glass and I can honestly say I cannot remember an occassion when we have had any problems.
What is important is communication with the customer and by explaining to  them that their may be a problem for the first couple of visits.
This is the way we do it - you and every other window cleaner are entitled to find the best way for them. If you dont wish to do frames thats entirely your choice.

I am sure you will agree to wfp window frames and sills is a lot easier and 10x faster than when you had to be stuck up a ladder after customers requested you clean frames in the old days with an applicator, leather and scrim -also a lot less webs and spiders to crawl over you
Glyn

[replacement]

I checked all my houses today ( was going to take pictures but no i really could not be bothered ) after i finished and not one spot not one problem. I know you have 6 yrs of water fed pole experince but that does not mean nothing if i was honest. There is a window cleaner round this way thats been cleaning windows for 18 years with his appliactor and squeegee and his rubbish. He miss's corners, you can see where is has not scrimed the sides, you can see the squeegee mark he some times leaves. So being experinced means nothing.

Now i strongly belive you are using the tools incorrectly ( tradesman always blame there tools ). Now saying that i do get the odd problem i must say but nothing like you are saying. I found the spotting problems i did get was due to dirty in the brush problem solved i rinse the brush head every house i clean, i did have the odd run problem solved i needed to clean the top frame and rubber seal better. Both these problems i dont get no more, and it is very rare if i get any spots on any glass now.

Oh another problem was the sun drying the water to quick and another user on this fourm gave me the answer i was looking for, Poleman was the one that helped me, and this problem has been solved and i dont get this no more.

Now as for promoting the wfp systems the last thing i want at this present moment is another pole user in my area. Why? Cause i know they will do a rubbish job of it and give wfp a bad name, thous making it harder for me to gain new customers with it.

If you like i got my How to use a wfp in a pdf format online the link is here.

http://www.squeakyclean4u.com/wfp/wfp.pdf

Now there is more stuff to add to that with problems but this might help you solve some of the issues you have.

All the best.

Justin

Ps I now alot of people say its faster, but i take my time and do a proper job with the frames as well, but then if you charge a good price in the 1st place you can spend the time on it.

Pps I take it by your post another pole user has come into your area and you have lost some work due to him cleaning frames?

[elfords]

Justin

I will be replying to your above post in due course, when I get the time. Sorry to see your pride seems to be hurt that was never my intention, if you could look beyond your pride I am actually trying to help, but it is clear you think you do not need it, so I will reply when I get a chance and help those that are willing to be more objective and look beyond what little good experience you have gained so far and also not just those opinions of a wfp supplier.

And yes your right about a local competitor who is only making the same mistake as others before him, myself included that you cannot offer to clean frames for free because there is a lot more too it than that and this approach is not good for our profession, he too has little experience and will learn soon that it is all not so simple as the wfp suppliers would have us all believe.

Experience like it or not is everything especially if you know what you are talking about. Will be back later.

All the best

[poleman]

And yes your right about a local competitor who is only making the same mistake as others before him, myself included that you cannot offer to clean frames for free because there is a lot more too it than that and this approach is not good for our profession, he too has little experience and will learn soon that it is all not so simple as the wfp suppliers would have us all believe.

Experience like it or not is everything especially if you know what you are talking about. Will be back later.

All the best

Hi GARY

would just like to point out that I'm not new to the WFP SYSTEMS you have made this assumption because of my ad in bmth yellow pages, as the saying goes don’t judge a book by its cover.

Andy

PS Kev says HI

[Old_Master]

Hi Gary
I am confused regarding your reference to the "opinions of a water fed supplier". If you care to look at my photographs in many of my posts you will see we are not just a waterfed supplier
My company PH Cleaning Services www.phcleaning.com started cleaning windows  in 1970 and I  personally cleaned windows for 20 +  years.
PH Cleaning carries out window cleaning on some of the most difficult access locations in the country.  We are fully qualified to operate virtually all types of access equipment and we have carried out the "more difficult" jobs for many of the largest commercial window cleaning contractors in the UK and Ireland. We are fully qualified and acredited MAIN CONTRACTORS (the criteria to be a main contractor for rail networks is very difficult to achieve) approved to carry out work on 70 Rail and Underground Networks across the UK, and have awards for our Health & Safety and contract planning.
So to be honest I was amused to be considered just a waterfed pole manufacturer.

Have you had a very bad experiance with a window frame?  (in your childhood perhaps)  ::)It appears you must have.

You state you are trying to help but I am not sure Justin needs help he is  a very quick learner and has mastered the use of WFP very well to the point of helping other much more experianced users. If it aint broke why fix it.

Gary why cant you accept we are cleaning frames with no problems.
We are not lying to our customers or ourselves- We realy do clean window frames.

And if you dont want to no problem it is entirly a matter of choice you run your buisness and clean windows exactly how you want to if you want to charge ten times as much to clean frames good for you, keep your bank manager happy banking all that extra cash.

So it's  been six years since you started using WFP I was sure it was only three or so years ago you contacted us for information about wfp systems - how time flies. Was'nt  Bruce Barrons of Aquapole the first one to have wfp, in your area I thought he had the area to himself for several years.

One last point you seem convinced that everybody is loosing work due to me and others like me overselling our systems.
All I have seen is people being revitalised by a new way to do a boring job and in many cases companies increasing their turnover by 100% or more in a year.
How can we oversell a system that can and does earn 3 to 4 times more for the operator.

If Craig Mawlem was in another industry he would have got an OBE by now. (I would get the second one)  

It is well known that Craig and I dont see eye to eye, but credit where it is due.

If we could bring out a system where Building Contractors could earn 4x more in an hour I am sure that they wouldnt be constantly moaning about the people who earn their living by developing the system or wasting hours and hours copying them to save a couple of weeks wages - they would be out earning 4x more money and be happy with it.
That reminds me where are the parts for the Kango im building.


Glyn

[replacement]

Gary,
      Sorry to say i dont need help. As your last post says. I get the very very rare problem apart from that everything is perfect. So ill miss the offer of help. But if i want spotting windows, smears and runs then ill ask you first, as you seam to be an expert in the matter.

Justin

[The_Fed_Man]

Hi Glyn,

Good post, nice to have someone on here with a larger window cleaning business.

For the record, we were the first in the Bournemouth/Poole area with a system at the turn of the Millenium, Bruce followed later that year. Even if one operator did have the area to himself there is plenty to go round, of the handful that have systems we don't seem to cross eachothers paths much. Gary I don't know, I understood he built his own.

To be fair to Gary, we have come across certain parts of different windows that are best avoided, I would say we are unable to clean every square inch of the top window frame to the brickwork of every window without any problems. Most can be got, but not all. Some vents run inside the building causing customers to complain as well as running over the outside glass half an hour later. Some don't run at all. Some top hung windows will run from the join, especially if opened just after cleaning, some won't. We have some vents on a cliff top job that fill up with sea salt, no way could you flush these clean without doing a separate frame clean every time.

Do you remember Mark Groves? When he bought  his system from you, when was it 98/99? he came to work for you for a week to learn?  Well a lot of this he passed onto me, so I gathered this way the way you worked as well.

To do glass only would be quicker and maybe more competitive if results weren't paramount, some companies are only interested in bottom line as you know and may be happy with this standard. We prefer to do as much of the frames as possible and spend time getting a good result, but that is our customer base and our standard of work. I think horses for courses.

Do you use a WFP water heater much at PH Cleaning?

Regards,

Martin

[poleman]

For the record, we were the first in the Bournemouth/Poole area with a system at the turn of the Millenium, Bruce followed later that year.

SO AQUAPOLE'S Our Mission STATEMENT IS WRONG :-/
ftp://http://www.aquapole.co.uk/
thinking about it he did try selling me his shop windows round the time you stated, saying he was getting into a new service, think i will have a chat with Mr Barrons

Andy

[The_Fed_Man]

Hi Andy,

First time I've seen that.  Don't think he had a system in 98, we first saw him in 2000 using a Bedford Midi and wearing an aussie hat! I know from my supplier that we were the first as he supplied Bruce also. But what does it matter.  Most people that have seen the system locally turns out to have been us, so it seems we help him advertise according to his web page!

I didn't realise that was your ad in YP Keep your prices up, there's plenty for all of us, good luck

Martin