[Paul Coleman]

I don't think its a question of training. Any trade organisation would have to campaign for safety and best practices within the industry it represents.
I would like to see how anyone can argue in favour of ladders when there is a viable alternative. Whether we like being told what to do is another matter.

 

Hate being told what to do.  That's why I'm self employed   

[Pat Purcell]

I dont work over there yet but having participated in this forum for a while I cannot understand why some window cleaners association or federation is not fighting the proposed ban on ladders

 but I think any federation of window cleaners should first and foremost be fighting for the right of its members to work in the most efficient  and safe manner they believe possible and not what insurance co,s find to be the most profitable for them

Interesting points, my call on this is that unfortunately due to the number of serious if not fatal accidents happening due to the use of laders this directive was always inevitable.

Inevitable is a very strong word to use but if you believe that then would it not also be inevitable that there would eventually be a ban on Cradle work,abseiling and Mewps which in the advent of a ladder ban will become much more commonly used by window cleaners who inevitably will take chances

Insurance companies will take a harsh look at people who wish to use ladders as there is no doubt that an accident up a ladder could prove very dangerous. Hence why they are looking and pushing for WFP options which is without doubt a safer alternative, lets not get into the results discussion, lets keep this about saftey.

Its hard to discuss a job like ours without mentioning results as results are all our customers care about but let me leave it at this
If you take all windows as being 100%(and assume that the builders clean has been done on all )then (these are not hard no,s just guesses on my part and not being in the UK ill informed guesses but insert your own no,s here)30% of windows are not suited to wfp and about 30% will have access issues(remember you cant use your pointer to stradel the back gate or your 20 footer to get onto that flat roof etc)
As far as insurance co.s are concerned then they are there to mitigate against an accident by the few which is subsidised by the many,Your 18 yr old daughter can get insurance to drive a car albeit at a higher rate and when she turns 25 that rate will be reduced as she has gained experience and has not had an accident

What grounds would you see that a FED or ASSC have to justify an argument with the WAHD or government regarding going up a ladder? Lets be honest, we have all taken risks on ladders, I know I have , it's par for the course!

When you look at the alternatives , Wfp being only one but lets use that,If every shiner in the UK is using one then ( chancers will take chances) the probability of accidents is still there. Different kinds of accidents in all honesty but accidents all the same, there is also a larger chance of RSIs as opposed to a ladder user or a wfp iser who chops and changes depending on the circumstances

At the end of the day we just have to face it, previous miss-use of ladders has resulted in accidents which have resulted in claims and government awareness as to the risks involved! Had we all been footed, tied on at the top, secured at the bottom perhaps this WAHD would never have been an issue? Guess we have ourselves to blame 

If this arguement held true then it could be used to ban almost any tool used by any worker as accidents occur in all industries
If ladders are banned then it would stop anyone with a ladder and a bucket frrom becoming a window cleaner which would in the short term be a good thing for wfp users and would turn a lot of legimitate window cleaners into cowboys unless they go down the wfp path
    A greater demand for WFps would inevitably increase the price of the equipment while more users would mean more competition for the percentage of work suited to wfp thus reducing prices which in the long term just benifits the WFP manufacturers and possibly the few window cleaning co,s that are large enough to swallow the start up costs of going nation wide with franchises etc(if those are anything like over here then they charge low pay their poorly trained workers low and care little for quality but with diminished competition and few alternatives {their pure water is the same as yours} the customer will go with the lower price or with a ladder climbing cowboy who does not have insurance not because he does not want it bit because he cannot get it
Trevor , this is not an arguement with you and maybe some of the points I have made are a little extreme(although I tried to e rational) but from my perspective not as extreme as banning ladders completely

Sorry that did not post the way I wished as some of my responses were included in Trevors quote

[DASERVICES]

I agree with Trevor, WFP is the new tool on the market for a lot of us. However
I do not see any association promoting it to the general public. We all tell our
customers that we are now using WFP due to the WAHD regulations.

The public are not aware of this, surely an association should be backing it's members in publicising the benefits of WFP due to WAHD in the local newspapers.

I have a funny feeling the FED does not back WFP to its full due to a certain
person trying to promote WFP. Surely this can be a hinderance to its members.

An association needs to promote its members to the general public, just getting cheaper insurance anyone can do it.

I do accept the FED backed its members in the recent water shortage, but you need to promote the industry all the time not only in time of need.

However speaking to some of their new members who have burning ambition
things may change for the better.

Doug

[Trevor Knight]

Cradle Work -

WFP is a safer option to using ladders, naturally if your working from a cradle 100ft up in the air then there is no alternative access options, you wouldn't be expected to use a ladder in the first place?? However, if your working at 15ft then yes, WFP is a good and much safer option.

Suitability -

30% not suited and 30% access problems??? Not wanting to argue but strongly disagree, especially regarding the access. I have about 1% that require a ladder to access a flat roof and as for a 6ft gate, we just jump over? As for suitability, I can only speak on experience, over 1800 customers and around 6 houses that they want us to clean traditionally as the results are poor?

Car Insurance -

Not sure the relevance with your analogy? Your talkin about age when this is about safety, no matter how many years you have been going up a ladder, you are much more likely to hurt yourself falling down wether its your 1st or 10,000th trip up and down the ladder. Fact, using WFP you will not hurt yourself falling with WFP as your not working up a ladder and therefore the risk ratio of wfp v laders is incredibly low.

So would you not get RSI from repeatedly going up and down a ladder all day, every day?

If this arguement held true then it could be used to ban almost any tool used by any worker as accidents occur in all industries

Any hazard that is identified will almost certainly come under scrutiny from H&S, you cant go on a building site now without a safety helmet, boots, flourescent vest. You must wear goggles when operating certain power tools, towers and platforms must be used for internal access, these situations all stem from previous miss-use and consequent accidents. Its the way of this world and in particular the UK. Safety, safety, safety!

If ladders are banned then it would stop anyone with a ladder and a bucket frrom becoming a window cleaner which would in the short term be a good thing for wfp users and would turn a lot of legimitate window cleaners into cowboys unless they go down the wfp path

Yes thats true, but if its the only way forward as far as the government and H&S are concerned then you have to adapt to their demands. I believe we should all have freedom of choice, maybe we can continue using ladders and pay the increased insurance premiums? Until this messy situation is completely aired by the government and we all know EXACTLY where we stand its all a bit uncertain. One thing is for sure, accidents on ladders will never help the situation and only act as more reasons to ban them?

    A greater demand for WFps would inevitably increase the price of the equipment

surely the greater demand the greater the pressure on the supplier to reduce his costs to sell his product in an ever increasing market place just like you said regarding window cleaners having to drop prices to compete?

while more users would mean more competition for the percentage of work suited to wfp thus reducing prices which in the long term just benifits the WFP manufacturers and possibly the few window cleaning co,s that are large enough to swallow the start up costs of going nation wide with franchises etc(if those are anything like over here then they charge low pay their poorly trained workers low and care little for quality but with diminished competition and few alternatives {their pure water is the same as yours} the customer will go with the lower price or with a ladder climbing cowboy who does not have insurance not because he does not want it bit because he cannot get it

In my experience, the lowest price doesn't always win. How you sell your service is your choice, I never sell on price, I sell on reliability, professionalism, attention to detail, the fact we are insured, employees are registered with the local police, we wear uniform and carry ID cards, we have 15 years proven track record, endless references - All this is what constitutes my price and what I will charge the customer which in turn lets them understand what they can expect from my company. There is not point taking on a cheap window cleaner that is here one day and gone the next because he underpriced his service. How many customers can you count that have said to you "I used to have a window cleaner, but he's dissappeared"? I guarentee any customer who has suffered an accident by a beer brigade window cleaner breaking a roof panel on their conservatory that then refuses to pay for or replace it, make certain that their next window cleaner is insured and legitimate?