[Philip Hanson]

I have sent this email to the NFMWGC, I wanted to share it, as I have raised points which I believe are of importance to us all.  I will post their response when (and if) it comes.

-Philip

Dear Beryl,

Please find attached my certificate of public liability insurance.  This is in PDF format, as recieved from my insurers.

I would also be grateful if you would respond to the following points:

1: The Federation's annual report promised guidance on the European Work at Height Directive stating "we will keep members informed of developments through Window Talk and Newsletters".  I have so far received no information whatsoever regarding this important issue.  As this Directive is to become law later this year, when will we have guidance on this matter?  Surely we need information before it becomes law, or we will face prosecution by the HSE.

2:  I am very disappointed in the quality of the Window Talk magazine.  There seems to be a major issue to do with basic spelling and grammar.  How can we as an industry possibly expect to be taken seriously when our very own trade journal cannot even be produced to a decent standard.  I noticed in the annual report that for the year ended 31 December 2003 that there was over £200,000 in the NFMWGC's bank account (not to mention substantial funds held in investments).  Surely there is sufficient funds to cover the cost of proof reading for a journal that is only issued 4 times a year.

3:  I beleive that there is so much happening in our industry at present, I am puzzled by the content of the articles submitted to Window Talk.  I fail to see the virtue of publishing under "letters to the editor" members renewal notices, and nor do I understand the value of reproducing window cleaning articles more than 25 years old.

Would this space not be better used discussing topics that are affecting us window cleaners right now?  For example, the arrival of the Water-Fed pole is arguably the biggest change in the industry for decades, but I have yet to see a single article to help members decide on whether this would be the best course for their business, how the WFP works, costings, features to look for in a system, etc.

I would argue that it is these issues, not cake-eating foxes (WT April 2004, p22) that are of importance to window cleaners.

I look forward to your response, which I will be discussing with my fellow window cleaners.

Kind regards

Philip Hanson
Hanson Window Cleaning

[choice.clean]

well done phil i tried to start this type of subject previously but was told fed was on course i asked the fed for info on waterfed before purchasing info was negligible i think too that there should be a dedicated section in window talk to this subject. can,t the fed see all those adverts they are taking for waterfed systems? IS THERE A NEED FOR A WATERFED POLE FED? IF THE FED DON,T DO IT SOMEONE WILL JUMP IN THE GAP EVENTUALLY I BELIEVE

[williamx]

Phillp

If you think that the federation will answer your questions to your satisfation then i'm afraid you living with the pixies and fairies down the bottom of my garden.

The federation don't want to, or can't get to grips with modern technology and information they behave like many other people and insitutions of yesterday and today, in that they think they have have found total perfection with their methods, and nobody can improve on them.

[Philip Hanson]

Here is the reply from the NFMWGC:

(Please note that, other than a change to the formatting to make it fit properly in this page, this is an exact copy of the reply)

Dear Philip

We thank you for forwarding proof of your liability cover.  Please refer to my replies in red alongside your questions below:


Kind regards

Beryl Murray
General Secretary
N.F.M.W& G.C.

From: Philip Hanson
Sent: 16 June 2004 01:50
To: windows@nfmwgc.com
Subject: P L Insurance Confirm


F.A.O. Beryl Murray

Dear Beryl,

Please find attached my certificate of public liability insurance.  This is in PDF format, as recieved from my insurers.

I would also be grateful if you would respond to the following points:

1: The Federation's annual report promised guidance on the European Work at Height Directive stating "we will keep members informed of developments through Window Talk and Newsletters".  I have so far received no information whatsoever regarding this important issue.  As this Directive is to become law later this year, when will we have guidance on this matter?  Surely we need information before it becomes law, or we will face prosecution by the HSE.   Initially, we would advise that the Directive is intended to be implemented in Great Britain by the Work at height Regulations in July 2004.  However, there is to be a twelve-month adjustment period before the Regulations are actually Enforced by July 2005.
I totally agree...we need more information on this subject, as and when it is available!  Previous issues and the Website's health & Safety page contains all the information that we have received from the HSE direct to date.  Did you receive the HSE information sheets - as mentioned in the January 2004 issue?   Also, the 1st July 2004 issue contains some additional information and can be viewed on the HSE website http:/www.hse.gov.uk/

2:  I am very disappointed in the quality of the Window Talk magazine.  There seems to be a major issue to do with basic spelling and grammar.  How can we as an industry possibly expect to be taken seriously when our very own trade journal cannot even be produced to a decent standard.  I noticed in the annual report that for the year ended 31 December 2003 that there was over £200,000 in the NFMWGC's bank account (not to mention substantial funds held in investments).  Surely there is sufficient funds to cover the cost of proof reading for a journal that is only issued 4 times a year.   Could you be more specific about the major issue on spelling and grammar?......as we have a very limited criticism in this area......not to say that we are perfect......but who is?  

3:  I beleive that there is so much happening in our industry at present, I am puzzled by the content of the articles submitted to Window Talk.  I fail to see the virtue of publishing under "letters to the editor" members renewal notices, and nor do I understand the value of reproducing window cleaning articles more than 25 years old.  
The history page was initiated because of members request.  Maybe you have your own expertise that you are willing to contribute to Window Talk and we thank you in anticipation of your help.

Would this space not be better used discussing topics that are affecting us window cleaners right now?  For example, the arrival of the Water-Fed pole is arguably the biggest change in the industry for decades, but I have yet to see a single article to help members decide on whether this would be the best course for their business, how the WFP works, costings, features to look for in a system, etc.   Yes, this would be great, and I have been looking for someone to write about this for some time!  Thank you...........are you offering?   We did not receive your reply to the article in the April issue "Calling All Water fed Pole Users"  An executive Council appeal that received very little response!!
Having said that, we have published an article in the July issue....this edition will be out to members by the 1st July.

I would argue that it is these issues, not cake-eating foxes (WT April 2004, p22) that are of importance to window cleaners.

I look forward to your response, which I will be discussing with my fellow window cleaners.

Kind regards

Philip Hanson
Hanson Window Cleaning

I will be replying with specific examples of the extent of the poor spelling and grammar.  I am quite astonished at the flippant tone of the response to this issue.  This is an embarrassment to all who are involved in the production of the journal.

I will also point out that I am not an expert on WFP systems, and I would expect the Fed to do their own research into the available systems, rather than asking their members to do it for them.

I will keep you informed.

-Philip

[The_Fed_Man]

Philip,

The problem with the content of Window Talk is getting people to contribute articles. Just as when the Federation require any feedback from members, most don't put pen to paper.  If you look at the number of the membership that vote for any issue, this is always low percentage wise as well. I don't think it's just our Trade, but Trade memberships in general.

I understand members require guidance on which systems to buy, but the Federation has to be seen to be unbiased to all Suppliers.  Better would be an article coming from a member such as yourself saying what you like or dislike about your chosen system.  I have myself written an article for this month's Window Talk regarding WFPs, hope the syntax is to your liking.  

The Fed exists as the main recognised body for window cleaners, true many could start other organisations, but how long would it take to get to the level of recognition that the Fed already has? It has changed a lot since I joined but like I have said before, if you want it to change get involved. If you have any issues you wish to bring up get them in writing to Beryl ASAP and they will be discussed at Committee level.

Best Regards

[Philip Hanson]

I do not think an alternative association to The Fed is the right thing at this moment in time.

I do think that there is room for improvement however, and for the sake of something as simple as proof-reading, I think the fed could give a much better impression.

Here is my response to the email:

Dear Beryl,

Thank you for your prompt reply.  With regard to Window Talk, I really am very suprised that no-one else has commented on the standard of grammar and spelling.

Could you be more specific about the major issue on spelling and grammar?......as we have a very limited criticism in this area......not to say that we are perfect......but who is?  
Of course I do not expect perfection.  But I do expect that a decent standard of English is used.  To be specific, here are the mistakes that I managed to spot on just the first page of the April 2004 WT:  I have numbered them in blue

Only minutes from the major North1 / South2 motorways, the Hanover International Hotel & Club -  A3 unique modern hotel, recently refurbished, spacious, en-suite bedrooms.  

There are a number of things wrong with this sentence: 1,2 & 3 are unnecessary capitalization, but most importantly this sentence does not make sense.  It should be:

“Only minutes from major north and south motorways, the Hanover International Hotel & Club is a unique and modern hotel.  Recently refurbished, it features spacious, en-suite bedrooms”

==

With all 4the key facilities to hand (from satellite TV and a relaxing cup of tea to ironing boards to start your day crumple-free).5  The leisure club provides you with the perfect way to ease the strain of walking6 the trade show all day.

4 Missing word. Should be “all of the”

5 Inappropriate sentence break.

6 Missing word “around” (“walking the trade show” does not make sense.  It should be walking around the trade show)

==

You can work out in the fully equipped gymnasium,7 then take a dip in the large indoor heated swimming pool, or chill out in the spa.  8Or, maybe opt for a game of golf nearby.  For the ultimate in relaxation visit the sauna & steam room.  9It has a friendly ‘local’ pub and two relaxing restaurants within the complex.

7 Unnecessary comma.

8 Repetition of “Or” and unnecessary comma.

9 “It” has no reference in this sentence.  Should be “There is a friendly...”

==

The exhibition & window cleaning competition 10is free to enter11, with great cash prizes to be won.  This year 12is slightly different in that 13we have eliminated the Medley competition 14– but added the prize money to the Speed contests, thus increasing the number of winners in the Open Speed contest to five15, minimum age limit for Men and Women is 16.  The Ladies can enter the Open Speed or the Ladies16 event,17 which will have three winners.

10 Change of plurality.  Should be “The exhibition and window cleaning competition are free to enter”

11 unnecessary comma

12 It is the event that is different, not the year.  Should be “This year the event is slightly different in that...”

13 Personalization.  The paragraph is in the objective tense, but the use of “we” is personal.  It should it should be “The Medley competition has been eliminated...”

14 Inappropriate hyphenation.  There should be a comma here, not a hyphen.

15 Sentence break is needed here to read:  “...increasing the number of winners in the open speed contest to five.  The minimum age limit...”

16 “Ladies” should be “Lady’s”.  (“Ladies” is the plural of “Lady”, whereas “Lady’s” describes that which belongs to them)

17 Unnecessary comma.

==

Unfortunately, mistakes like this tend to be the first thing a reader notices, and they distracted from the actual content.  There is no doubt that a poorly written article gives a very bad impression. To be taken seriously an organization needs to take presentation of its communications seriously.

I would suggest that the extra cost of proofreading would be money well spent.

-Philip Hanson

[Old_Master]

To be fair to the FED everybody pays such a little amount in subscriptions we have no reason to complain.

Window cleaners complain and refuse to join over £50.00 a year subscription (one or two hours wages if you take the figures quoted by writers on this board) £50.00 is a joke for membership compaired to other trade associations.  
If the Fed charged a levy on your turnover like some trade associations say 2%, window cleaners just wouldnt join.
Unlike some other trades you do not have to be a member of the Federation!
The CITB (Contruction Industry) for example provide fantastic training with hundreds of staff to answer your every question but the annual fee runs into hundreds or even thousands of pounds a year, these fees are enforced you HAVE TO PAY.
Another point, the Fed commitee are all unpaid volunteers unlike commitee members of other large trade associations.  

If you look at the federation membership you will see only 2% of window cleaners in the UK are members and the federation relies totally on its members to participate.  
The people you are attacking for not comming up with more information are no different to you, they are window cleaners who are running buisnesses and devoting their spare time to helping members. If you all vote to pay four  five or even ten times more in fees I am sure the Federation could afford  appoint full time staff to enable all your questions to be answered and write and proof read articles in the magazine.
I have complained directly to the FED in the past when I havent had questions etc. answered but then I remember how little I pay.  
Lets get real - you only get what you pay for!
Glyn
Fed Member 6079

[choice.clean]

with £200,000 in the bank why not pay someone to improve the professionalism wfp users are seeing the need to invest. it is moving rapidly away from man with a bucket. and others are moving in to cash in on need for training by selling training courses so why not pay some money to keep in within mutuality. that way we all benefit, I,m all for paying at least one person who knows about wfp to contact wfp users by phone for example do an ongoing survey and give the feedback in window talk. How about a recommended list of fed members who are willing to give advice in each area. or if we are afraid of competition send people across country to members. i.e. help a member but feel safe he is not going to bother you by competing.
you could have a member in north wales for example being referred to a member in Bristol if he,s serious about water fed he would be prepared to jump on a train. and the fed member doing the training could receive a fee paid for by the enquirer. Oh yes and if someone is worrying about qualifications to train the guy doesn,t even have to use a pole i,ve had guys learn a lot by just standing by me for the day and talking through what we do.

I also think the fed could learn a lot by watching this forum.

[Terry_Burrows]

every year we have a show,there are only a percentage of fed members that go,at the show there is an agm,hardly any of fed members go,thats the place to voice off!same old story they cant be botherd!thats the problem! whos going to the newcaslte show! they could not be botherd to go to leeds this year,when you think we have some 2500 members,poor turn out,I dont disagree with what some things are said,but a lot more
support from you the members would help,instead of tapping on a forum!and go to the agm

I myself work very hard on these shows on the day to make them work,and give interest to our members and public,and also give support to the people that make our show,ie the contributers wfp and all!
thats why I have been asked to compare and work on the docklands show in october 8th and 9th at the excel centre,things do not land  in your lap,not in this life!

[Andrews_Water]

I'm astonished that Philip Hanson should launch such a "nit-picking" criticism of spelling and grammar in Window Talk, when he can't even spell "surprised" correctly himself, and obviously didn't use a spell checker.

Numbers 1 to 9 refer to a description of the hotel facilities, which were probably lifted straight from some of their publicity material.  Surely the Fed can't be taken to task for not proof reading the hotel's copy?

Most of his other criticism is real nit-picking stuff, and in item 16 he is clearly wrong.  "Ladies" should be "Ladies' ", as it refers to a competition open to Ladies in the plural.

I don't disagree with some of his other criticism, but feel that sniping of this kind detracts from other valid concerns.

Good luck, Beryl, 9.5 out of 10 for your spelling, grammar, and punctuation !

Andrew

[Craig_Mawlam]

My view is that there are many issues that need to be addressed especially regarding professionalism within our industry and I believe that this is Phil Hanson’s global message so why not start with something as basic as spelling and grammar. In general Window Talk serves its target readers and if spelling and grammar are a little off then most readers would not spot it. However as a publication from an industry lead body it must be expected that WT will be read by more learned folk from outside the industry. The importance of correct spelling, grammar, content and presentation then becomes a more important issue because they will form an impression of our industry based upon WT.

The Fed committee is made up of elected volunteers who have businesses of their own and the time they devote to Federation matters should not be underestimated and they should be applauded for their considerable efforts. Recently they have worked with others to produce a number of guidance notes detailing the safe use of various types of access equipment and this is a good thing.

There is no doubt that the pace of change in our industry has become more rapid and the Fed is aware of this. There is also little doubt that they need help, they can spend member’s money to buy in the skills they need or they could tap in to the expertise that already exists within the industry. Forums like this help to identify those who have a desire to devote their time to industry matters. The Fed could sit back and wait to see who puts themselves up for election at the next AGM or it could make approaches to those whose comment it values. The Fed is our industry lead body, but it is their ball.

Re Ladies/lady's

The Ladies can enter the Open Speed or the Lady's event

I believe the above to be correct, is that right Phil?

Best regards
Craig Mawlam

[Philip Hanson]

My post is not perfect (and I am not a proof-reader), but I am not proposing it be printed, included in a magazine and then sent to thousands of members as the official communication of an organization.  

Window Talk is such a publication, and it is usually standard practice for published material to be proof-read.

A poorly written journal gives a bad impression of its source.  My first impression on seeing it for the first time was that the Fed was "amateurish".

Numbers 1 to 9 refer to a description of the hotel facilities, which were probably lifted straight from some of their publicity material.  Surely the Fed can't be taken to task for not proof reading the hotel's copy?

Regarless of from where the Hotel's details where taken, as soon as they appear unquoted somewhere else it is the responsibility of the writer to make sure that the sentences are correct.  Also, this cannot have been lifted directly from the hotel's literature as there is a reference to the trade show.

I don't disagree with some of his other criticism, but feel that sniping of this kind detracts from other valid concerns.

In my opinion this is a valid concern.  If I received a poorly written letter from the Federation for example, I would not take the organization seriously.  This may well contribute to the widespread apathy about the Federation that we see.

I believe that criticism should be constructive, and I have offered a solution to this problem (use a proof-reader).  If I were simply complaining without suggesting any solutions, then that would not be constructive.  But the solution here is simple and inexpensive.

If we don't criticise something when it's wrong, than we can't ever expect it to get better.

-Philip

[Terry_Burrows]

;)I am not so sure about the apathy,it might well be our true british cant be bothered attitude to go and get up mode,if this was America it would be different,I have been to there shows,but the members do go,if certain people think they can run things better,please propose
yourself up for the committee,you will have to go to the meetings every 3 months,and it will open your eyes how much work is done,are we highly paid
we get £150 per day,plus petrol,still want to offer your personal services to be on the board ???this statement
is put to all that want to dig at the federation and knock it,we all know £150 is not a lot of money when you are out there,we can all earn far more per day,given the chance,and theres the  drive of 230 miles there and back, why because on the money we get,if you start staying over night it becomes why I am I doing this well thats the facts over with,still linning up for that being on the board I can hear a
pin drop

[Terry_Burrows]

;)makes you wonder somtimes,what was all this posting
was about in the first time ;)the masters of life will always prevail but then ,someone has always will show the way,the moral of this post,

someone can tell you,but when you have already walked that path,then they have told you nothing,then we listen some more,young ideas are always welcome,
the path is long
no amount of money can make you do what you do,
its in you what you do,and passion that drives you,
thats why we are all here for what we are,
our own destiny awaits

us all

god bless be happy!

[karlosdaze]

Sorry,
Have to agree with Phil on this one.
I joined up not only to learn & keep in touch with the trade, but to get that professional image. The grammar is poor, & I'm no English major. It proved it when John (Majestic) received the last show invitation & it was spelt wrong. Craig said it all really.
The Fed is our industry lead body, but it is their ball.

Please stop passing the buck, get it sorted, learn from criticism, its the best advise you can get, and usually pretty personal. People have hinted at it before - nothing was done - this is what its come too!

[poleman]

Good discussion on the NFMW&GC my view point on the above being a member from 1993.

When I first join The Federation, I was a window cleaner that only had contact with one or 2 window cleaners in my area and it was a good to get a view point from a national side of things and was happy to pay the small amount for this privilege.

The Federation has change from when I first join BUT only in the past 3 or 4, “whys that” what with the Water-Fed Pole Systems now being a million pound Industry revenue from the advertising in WT would be the first thing that spring BUT if the view point of us window cleaners is where it is at, then a lot of window cleaners that I speak with is the federation is very much perceived as 70s working mans club.

YES Philip the Federation needs to move in to the 21st century, I very much appreciate there hard work that they do and think that they must stay in depended from out side influences BUT it is going to take a revolution to change them, I for one would be happy to pay double for my membership if it means we get a better window cleaners Federation

Andy        

[choice.clean]

the way i see it it,s simple give someone a decent salary in the fed who will cope with the stick and set up another part of the fed that specifically deals with wfp issues wfp users could join for an additional fee and the salaried fed member with secretary gets right on top of the wfp case we all benefit with a professional image for wfp users and the fed staff are happier the fed has got to move forward. I understand why terry is not happy with those expenses i would urge the fed to get real i have my prices have risen 50% since buying a waterfed pole wfp users would be happy to pay more to the fed if we could see the benefits craig told me we have to invest in the customer with wfp and i think the fed should do the same if it is to keep up with the industry. If the fed ever wants to contact me a wfp user for 3 years now feel free.

[Terry_Burrows]

;)I agree the Fed do need to move with the times,I think most part of the members are in the north,we need more south,or spread,when you think how long the Fed has been going,and has just around 2500 or so members,in 1995 I only found out about the Fed on  a show which I was on,BBC Record Breakers,I never knew of them before I had been cleaning windows for some
20 years or more so theres still lots of work that can be done,

[WavieDavie]

Terry,

Is the Fed in contact with all, or most, of the WFP manufacturers? Why not get together and ask them to add on an extra £50 to the cost of a system and incorporate a Fed membership in with the price?
Existing members would get £50 knocked off the price - they'd have to prove they were members but that would be easy enough.
The manufacturers won't lose anything as it'll be across the board and none of them will have an advantage. In fact it could be seen as an extra feature & benefit in the selling process. Something on the same lines as a year's free AA membership when you buy a motor from some outlets.

What do you think? Am I on a commission?

[Terry_Burrows]

;)yes the fed is in contact with all ;)there are things moving in the fed at the moment