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Chris R

  • Posts: 813
High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« on: November 03, 2006, 10:13:35 pm »
Hi,

for the last 6 weeks or so I have been experimenting with the cleaning process of using a high PH pre spray, followed by an acidic rinse.

I have not used this method on wool or upholstery.

I have been using Blitz pre spray from Hydramaster ( PH 12.5  :o )
and rinsing with Chemspec Liquid High heat ( PH 4 ).

Its got to be the EASIEST way to clean a carpet that I have EVER used !
( in 20 yrs)

The Blitz pre spray just STRIPS the dirt from the carpet !

Does anyone else clean this way ?

The carpet seems to require less passes of the wand to get it clean, so with the aid of my truckmount and a glided wand I am getting excellent drying times.

What is your opinion of this method of cleaning ?

Does the acidic rinse do enough to combat the high PH of the pre spray ?

I accept that this method is not for the novice cleaner.

regards

Cowboy Chris  ;)

Staffordshire

David_Annable

  • Posts: 689
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2006, 10:39:10 pm »
Hi

It woudn't work for me Chris as all my work is Wool or Upholstery.

Indian Dave Ye ha
NCCA, Woolsafe, IICRC Leather Cleaning Technician

Eddie Conroy

  • Posts: 108
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2006, 11:19:08 pm »
Chris,
Although I have not used the these products I tend to suspect that on polyprop or nylon carpets you are correct. Presumably you test the effect before carrying out the clean. On wool carpets you would  probably 'loosen'  the dye even if you return it to an acid state.
I would suggest that you carry some PH testing Kit or meter, to ensure that you are returning all carpets to the acid side of neutral
Regards
Eddie

Jeremy

  • Posts: 130
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2006, 05:35:57 am »
Chris.

I use a similar method all the time on wool, however my prespray has a PH of 10.5. I think a PH of 12.5 is a little to agressive for wool.

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2006, 08:27:43 am »
pardon my lack of knowledge but does'nt high Ph strip out the acid dye blockers used in nylon carpet? so it might clean really well this time  but you're making problems for the next time you visit.

I'm assuming you are doing a burn test on every carpet you clean to test for wool content.

Mike
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2006, 09:03:03 am »
I have done this a few times recentlly on a trashed Carpets

And Last week on a trashed suite.

But normally I would not do this.

Steve Carpenter

  • Posts: 28
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2006, 09:51:03 am »
Hi Chris,

With a pH level of 12.5 you’re not that far from cleaning with bleach! This combined with the heat truckmounts are capable of, and you risk a claim on your insurance even after rinsing with a product with a lower pH of 4. Damage can take place almost instantly.

This combination should be left for polypropylene fibres only.

You should only use professionally formulated products that meet the pH criteria for cleaning wool and nylon. Wool rapidly degrades in high alkalinity and nylon should be cleaned as per wool because of its similar dying methods. Nylon also fades and becomes brittle in high alkalinity.

Regards

Steve

Chris R

  • Posts: 813
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2006, 10:03:03 am »
Thanks for the info Steve and Mike

I new that about wool, but thought nylon was pretty bullet proof.

I will save this method for the polyprops then  ;)

OH WELL, back to crappy micro splitters again !

regards

Cowboy Chris
Staffordshire

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2006, 10:14:48 am »
cut & pasted this info on acid dyes;

Acid dyes are negatively charged anionic dyes primarily used on nylon as well as wool and other animal fibers. Seldom used on cotton since this process requires a mordant.

These are also the dyes commonly used to artificially dye drinks, candies, etc., including Kool-Aid®

Acid dye blockers are negatively charged anionic naphthalated phenolic resins that act like colorless dyes and cause nylon fibers to resist most common household food and beverage stains containing acid dyes by occupying remaining dye sites.

Sometimes called stain blockers, acid dye blockers work by blocking the positively charged nylon dye sites, thus preventing (theoretically) staining by acid dyes.

Acid dye resistance is the additional property built into fifth generation nylon fiber.

Note: Nylon stain resist warranties are most often covered under installations in owner-occupied residences.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

more

Acid dyeable nylon is nylon polymer that has been modified chemically to make the fiber receive acid dyes. Acid dyes are negatively charged (anionic). Dye sites are charged areas on a fiber to which oppositely charged dyes are attracted. For example, cationic (positively charged) dye sites on nylon polymer attract acid dyes that are anionic (negatively charged). With today’s modern light colored carpets, very few of the dye sites are occupied by a dye, leaving plenty of dye sites available to react with Kool-Aid® (a registered trademark of Kraft Foods) and other foods and drinks containing acid dyes.

   Acid dye blockers are negatively charged anionic naphthalated phenolic resins that act like colorless dyes and cause nylon fibers to resist most common household food and beverage stains containing acid dyes by occupying remaining dye sites. Sometimes called stain blockers, these work by blocking the positively charged nylon dye sites, thus preventing (theoretically) staining by acid dyes. This is how Stainmaster® works. These are added to the nylon by the fiber producer or by the carpet mill.

   In the real world, with traffic, soiling, and cleaning, stain resistance gradually decreases. As a result, it is best to apply fluorochemical carpet protector on stain-resist nylon carpet after every cleaning.



Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

carpetguy

Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2006, 10:20:54 am »
So there !

Very informative Mike, don't remember Paul Pearce going into so much detail

robbie

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2006, 10:23:55 am »
Could the more technical amongs you explain

The diffrence between using a high ph a pre spray,

and a High ph powder such as Ashbys Supreme followed by an Acid Spray


Although I have not used it for years, I was under the impression you could use this method on wool although it might fail wool safe criteria.


Forums did guide me  other safer products

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2006, 12:58:51 pm »
Hi Guys,

It's worth bearing in mind that pH is a logarithmic scale which basically means that pH 12.5 is 100 times more alkaline than pH 10.5 and 10000 times more than ph 8.5  :o

pH is a measure of hydrogen ion potential so it can be adjusted by using an acid rinse, but this is where it becomes a bit more complicated how much needed will depend on the alkalinity of the prespray, not its pH.

For example a highly buffered pH 10.5 make take more acid tio neutralise than a lightly buffered pH 12.5.

So in conclusion I would be very careful with the high pH products on anything other than PP which is pretty resistant due to its having virtually no reactive sites, its why it makes such a good packaging product along with it close relative polyethylene.

Cheers

Doug

Mark Stanley

  • Posts: 237
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2006, 03:13:04 pm »
Chris.

Phew! there was a lot of info there.

In answer to you question does anyone else....

I (almost) always use the prespray and rinse method of clean  for carpets - using the appropriate spray to match the conditions and rinse, be it water or Fibre & Fabric Rinse ( I know of no other good rinse aid. ) Aided by a good vacuum first and agitation after prespray.

Regards Mark

NCCA

Derek

Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2006, 03:31:56 pm »
Any pH over the value of 10 is going to have an affect on protected items apart from any other potential degradation, etc.

the red carpet

  • Posts: 1162
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2006, 04:27:55 pm »
I think im right in saying this, im sure someone will comment if im not
But if you are gonna just use this on polyprop, the acid rinse will make little difference as the polyprop is so bulletproof its not affected by the high ph anyway so you dont need to use a acid rinse.

Mark Stanley

  • Posts: 237
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2006, 05:04:57 pm »
Red,

Yes and No. (or sort of )

without a good rinse it will attract the muck quicker - that is the difference - er I think.

Mark
NCCA

the red carpet

  • Posts: 1162
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2006, 05:20:29 pm »
polyprop will attract the oily soils anyway, and most other stuff wont stain as it dosent absorb it.

I think ???

*paul_moss

  • Posts: 2961
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2006, 05:45:26 pm »
High ph such as Bliz should be ok on 5th Generation nylon.
Paul Moss  MBICSc
www.mosscleaning.co.uk
REMOVED FOR POSTING OFFENSIVE MATERIAL

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2006, 05:56:59 pm »
not according to the 'carpet inspector' ;) ;)

www.carpetinspector.com/fifth_generation_nylon_yellow.htm

is'nt this a brilliant site!

mIKE
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

the red carpet

  • Posts: 1162
Re: High PH - Acid Rinse ?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2006, 06:06:37 pm »
I would have thought its the 5th generation that would be the problem, the 1st or second i would think you would get away with but i would worry about the protectors (3rd or 4th) generation and the acid dye blockers (5th generation)

And anyway, how do you now what generation it is ???

Better to play it safe, at i would say about 10ph on everything. I think thats a good balance.