[windows_chepstow]

I seriously want to move on, assuming I will be moving on, not everyone recommends it.

He's dithering already!  I mean who cares if 'not everyone recommends it'?

He sounds like Wor Lass, when she's deciding what pair of shoes to buy.

[matt]

And remember.  KEEP IT SIMPLE

Make pure water
take it out with you
and brush and rince windoww with it

David

this is the best advice you can get, keep it simple

personally my other advice would be, build it yourself, i use a car and 6 X 25 L barrels, from what i remmber your work is all local to you, so you could get away with 4 and pick up some more at lunch time at home

[Paul Coleman]

I seriously want to move on, assuming I will be moving on, not everyone recommends it.

He's dithering already!  I mean who cares if 'not everyone recommends it'?

He sounds like Wor Lass, when she's deciding what pair of shoes to buy.

  .  Seriously though, I was hesitant about it too Tosh.  I had been cleaning the traditional way since 1991 so it was a big change to make.  Living in a flat set back from the road caused me to make the changes faster than I might have done otherwise.  It just wasn't practical making pure water at home and transferring it to the van manually so I had to seek a place to store a tank.  Also, once I felt the weight of a 25 litre container of water, I didn't fancy humping them about so went for van mount.  Once that decision was made, I felt that having to return to base for topups during the day was impractical so I paid out more for a larger van and tank.  I keep some containers of water put by in case of problems so that I could get by with trolley and containers for a day though.
It is a big decxision and I feel that Squeaky is wise to take his time in considering his options.

[Ian_Giles]

Rog, When you say a lot of your round isn't suitable, what do you mean exactly?

Anywhere you can get to with a ladder you can get to with a pole.

All of us who use WFP are well aware that there are some windows you can never get right, but to be honest, you don't really know which ones they are until you have attempted to clean them.
I've had a couple of accounts when my heart has sunk and I've thought, 'Crap! Oxidized paintwork '
I've washed them, thrown the pole in the back of the van, grabbed the squeegee with the intent of at least making sure the downstairs windows are blemish free...only to find they have all come up perfect, and that from a first clean too.

As I've told you, my biggest gain as a result of WFP has been domestic accounts, and I use it on all of them, I don't have a single domestic account I don't use WFP on, and they are not cherry picked for suitability either.

All of those St Arvans Accounts would be fine for WFP, and the saddle shop would be a doddle
As would just about all of the accounts up at Brockweir, ditto those ones on the estate by your mum and the ones up by Em's mum.

You've 'come out' and admitted you are thinking about WFP now, so you still have a long road to travel before you get your equipment, and knowing you that will be a road thats a lot longer than most others too.

For those of you that don't know Roger personally, even his missus will tell you that his song should be; 'There's a hole in my bucket' (no window cleaning pun intended) Roger IS Henry, trust me, this song is Roger to a tee :

It took him 2 years to try out a microfibre cloth...and they are only a fiver each!!

Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

Rog, When you say a lot of your round isn't suitable, what do you mean exactly?

Anywhere you can get to with a ladder you can get to with a pole.

Of course you can't!
Where on earth did you get that idea from?

I've got a lot of flat roofs with windows above.
7 accounts by my mum's are over garages.
A lot of rotten wooden windows.
Leaky leaded.
Balconies.
Locked gates.
etc...etc...

As I've repeated many times, there's more I couldn't do with wfp than extras I'll be able to do.

If you don't believe me I'll point them all out to you. (But don't ask, it would take ages!)

[mark f]

squeaky your in more or less in exactly the same situation as me.  I have resisted untill now because like you i am a fast and good window cleaner with a lot of work such as old tatty oxidised georgian stuff with ancient paper thin glass that i know wfp will struggle with.
 
  But ive taken the plunge and paid out for the gear to start using it where i can. I think if i can have an easier life on some of my work all well and good.

  I will start just on the tops so as to limit any customer flak!!

 Also if h&s gets any more crazy then we will have the gear and customers will just have to accept it whether thier windows are suited or not.

  Also my work is 98% domestic and some of it is so fiddly i have wondered how on earth i will manage! But i have been lucky in that the system im getting is ideal for domestic work and the trolley im getting is a trolley to die for.

 It does all that a domestic window cleaner could wish for and more. It is light versatile and isnt mad on the water. I cant say to much about it yet because the patent is going through in next two weeks. But the inventor who is a friend of mine is a big commercial window cleaner and i have used this system with him for a few days and this experience has helped me take the plunge.

 But there are many options such as backpacks and other trollies as well.

 Im going to have a tank system in the van and use this to fill the trolley as well.

 I will keep you posted when i can or if you want me to pm details of my system to you as and when i can then i will.

[Ian_Giles]

I also clean windows on balconies, climb over gates and garages, so what? The pole goes with me.
And you can't have many leaky leaded windows either, there are not that many about!!
Real leaded windows are fairly rare, and even so, not all of them leak do they?
Rotten window sills? And your point is? If sills are that manky I never cleaned them trad anyway.

Henry keeps putting abstacles in front of Liza when she tells him how to repair his bucket...anyone see a connection here

At least Rog is actually thinking about it, but I think he will just find too many obstacles to make the move.

Ian

[Sir Squeaky]

I also clean windows on balconies, climb over gates and garages, so what? The pole goes with me.

What do you do? Pole vault?

[Ian_Giles]

You use a ladder dear Roger, a ladder

Ian

[mark f]

my reasoning is that if your a fast ladder using window cleaner and work on your own then even if you carry a rojak ladder stopper as i do in high profile places, there is no way you can fully comply with WAHR. So if i can limit my use of ladders then im complying to a greater extent.

  If wfp doesnt work on some work or IT ISNT PRACTICAL then your quite entitled to use your ladder. But i reckon after using the pole we will do all we can to limit ladder use which will become a pain.

[Moderator David@stives]

Squeeky

Just treat it as another tool in the box, the same way you decide which windows to scrim and which to squeeegie.

Unfortunately i have had to carry my ladder again for the odd couple of jobs, which are too lucrative to give up and the customer will not accept them being left.

But that is the nature of the job, you decide on the tools at every job, and if the jobs seem too much hassle and they are cheap enough drop them and find something more suitable.
It wont happen overnight but its worth it.

I would suggest working a week with Tosh or Ian and in return they work a week with you to show you the best way to aproach each job.

I wish i had offers of help when i started, I am self taught trad and wfp, there was no-one local to guide me.

Dave

Dave

[matt]

roger

you dont have to spend big to get into the WFP world

do as Tosh will s.gest

get yourself :

a backpack -- 150 - 200 quid (havent checked recently how much they are)

a 60 GPD RO and DI unit -- 75 quid from RO-MAN

a Unger or Cleantech pole -- 40 quid

brush, hose etc etc -- 50 quid

6 X 25 L barrels -- 30 quid

TDS meter -- 15 quid (from RO-MAN, i would add a small bag of resin to the order to make it above 100 quid with the RO unit , thus free postage)

a 210 L water Butt -- 30 quid (or if you are in a flat a 200 L flat tank, to fit where ever you can, ive helped some1 fit it in the ariing cupboard)

it'll start you off in the WFP world, then if you dont like it, not much lost and the kit will allways come in handy for the windows you hate from ladders

[windows_chepstow]

I've got a lot of flat roofs with windows above.
7 accounts by my mum's are over garages.
A lot of rotten wooden windows.
Leaky leaded.
Balconies.
Locked gates.

I've got all that.

Windows above garages; just use a single section of your ladder to gain access and trad them.

Dodgy paintwork; try them with WFP.  Most of mine come up great apart from Georgian stuff with flaky paint.

Leaky leaded; I still WFP these, with just a low flow rate and don't spend too much time on them.

Baconies; just use your ladders and trad them.

Locked gates; shouldn't be a problem for you.  You've stated on this forum you knock first before cleaning and if the customer isn't in, you don't clean.  When you knock, ask the customer to open their gate.  Some of my customers have hidden keys for me; others I just leave the rear if it's too much bother to get access.

[Sir Squeaky]

I know what you're saying, but I didn't want to have two lots of kit.
The idea was to replace ladders, not have them as well.

I don't knock everyone first, only the ones that look like they might be out.
Some who aren't in I just get on with and they send a cheque.

[windows_chepstow]

I know what you're saying, but I didn't want to have two lots of kit.
The idea was to replace ladders, not have them as well.

Carrying ladders isn't a problem, but undeniably it is a pain to use them at times.

In some areas I'll do all my WFP stuff first, then get a single section of my ladder and go running round the windows above flat roofs and stuff.  In other areas, I started using ladders for flat roofs, but then found there were ways where I could get to them with my pole.

I still have a street of houses, probably around 15 of them, and about ten of them have garages I have to climb over.

They're fairly well priced, good customers, so for this portion of the street where all the garages are and the houses are spread out; I use ladders for the lot, since WFP and ladders would be a pain here.

I have days when I don't climb a ladder once.  Other days where I climb it two-to-ten times!  I promise you it's a lot better than climbing up it 100 + times per day.

As many have said, use your WFP as just another tool. 

Rog,

I suspect that you're fussy who you take on as customers and over the years have only selected properties that are easy to do with ladders.  At the time, that was good business sense.

Once you get a WFP, you'll then start selecting better paying, bigger, more awkward properties (if they were done trad only) and making more money for your time; dropping your awkward stuff.

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

Is it April 1st? Squeaky asking for advice on wfp whereas for months he has been slagging it of without even trying it.

If you are genuine about this thread Squeaky then I will try to help out with your questions, if on the other hand it is a windup then it may make interesting reading for any other trad cleaners.

Will it make you a millionaire overnight? …….. NO
Will it increase your earning potentials? …….YES
Will it make life easier for you? ……..YES
Will you get teething problems? ………..YES
Is it safer?…….YES
Is it worth the investment? …….YES

You won’t become rich overnight but what you will find is that after a few months you will find yourself faster therefore having more time to take on more work or at least getting home earlier. It also has a lot of spin offs i.e. cleaning conservatory roofs, guttering, facias etc without putting 1 foot on a ladder, once again earning more in less time.

As for teething problems you will get 1 or 2 even the possibility of losing a customer or 2 but you will soon replace these with better paid jobs.

Now for the crunch question THE COSTS!!
If you buy from a dealer/s (no names mentioned) you will pay far over the costs, consider doing what I did.
Shop around for the equipment and build it yourself, it’s a bit like going to Ikea, if you buy flat pack furniture you will pay far less than ready assembled.
All the dealers do is to buy in the gear and assemble it to your specs and if you take away the cost of buying the gear i.e. pole, pump, tank, di/ro etc you will find that there hourly rate is even higher than garage mechanics.
So why pay these costs when there is a wealth of information on this forum alone to explain how to DIY, if you lived here in my location (Southampton) I would be more than happy to assist you with this. (that also goes to anyone)

As for what system is the best for you, only you can decide on that one. If you only have a car I would go down the backpack/trolley route although I myself prefer van mount as you don’t have to keep filling up 25ltr containers.
To keep the cost down go for a DI vessel first until you pickup more work (and you will) and at a later date get yourself an RO unit as I have done.

Converting your customers can be sorted by means of a explanatory sheet (see previous threads) you will find most of them genuinely glad to see you off the ladder.
e.g only this week I have picked up 5 new calls (average £10-00 each)
1 lady in 1 area told me her old window cleaner fell from his ladder a few months back and has not been back since and another lady (in a different area) told me she has had the same w/c for many years and he fell from his ladder breaking his leg. After 6 mnonths he returned to his round and in the lady’s words “he looked very ill and was scared to climb his ladder” he has since packed in losing his livelihood (scary eh?)

if you still want to do trad do what I do, I do the tops wfp whilst my son does the bottoms trad, the only reason I do this is to keep him employed, if for any reason we parted company I would do bottoms wfp too as I do when he goes on holiday just to keep up with the workload.

As for budgeting for wfp why not look at a bank loan? I don’t know what the interest rates or repayments are but lets say you borrowed £1,000 and paid it back to the bank at £20 per week or £80 per month that would only be 2 new jobs per week @ £10 each which you would be able to do standing on your head (and not your ladder)

Finally Squeaky, if you are genuine about going wfp then the very best of luck to you, you will never look back.
I know several trad w/cs that have change over to wfp but have never (as yet) come across a wfp w/c that has gone back to trad!

Don’t forget, if you ever come unstuck this forum is only a click on the mouse away to help!

GOOD LUCK MATE

[macc]

Rog.

I lease my van mount, ok, it may be slightly higher on the payments but it 100% against tax, no down payment & at the end of the lease its mine.

As for the flat roofs i have a set of telescopic ladders for access & use my mini pole.

I've not 1 window i cant get to with a pole if i could get to it with a ladder, you will be suprised what you can do with a pole, i still get the odd time that puts a smile on my face.

Macc

[Sir Squeaky]

Cheers Jay (and the others).
A lot of useful information.

Can't see me getting anything out of the bank until I've paid off the loan for the last whopping overdraft!

I'll keep pondering...

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

Q. Will WFP totaly eliminate ladders?

A. NO!.  But you'll be surprised where you can thred that pole when you get the hang of it.  I think even on your round you will have a 70 - 80% reduction in the use of your ladder

Q. Can ALL windows be done WFP?

A. NO!  But, again 90% can.  Even flaky paintwork you'll be surprised!  The worst are where white paintwork has gone "powdery"  Also some aluniium windows are like that.  In these cases DO NOT TOUCH THE FRAMES.  Get a swivle brush so as to be more accurate.  It takes time, patience and practice but you'll be surprised!

David

[matt]

Q. Will WFP totaly eliminate ladders?

A. NO!.  But you'll be surprised where you can thred that pole when you get the hang of it.  I think even on your round you will have a 70 - 80% reduction in the use of your ladder

Q. Can ALL windows be done WFP?

A. NO!  But, again 90% can.  Even flaky paintwork you'll be surprised!  The worst are where white paintwork has gone "powdery"  Also some aluniium windows are like that.  In these cases DO NOT TOUCH THE FRAMES.  Get a swivle brush so as to be more accurate.  It takes time, patience and practice but you'll be surprised!

David

i beg to differ with both points, i have 2 houses now i have to get onto the garage flat roof, i could either not do the windows or drop the account, thus no ladder fro me at all (its possible)

if the window is upstairs then it gets done with WFP, end of, i do a few alu framed windows, i have explained the score and they accept it, you get the odd run of metal paint on the odd occasion, but you would get the odd smear from the frame doing it trad aswell