[macleod]

Just been on the phone to HSE and the Local council

Does anyone argue with thess 3 points?

1. Both the window cleaner and the business that is having their windows cleaned must do a risk assessment for every job.

2. Both the window cleaner and the business must ensure use the safest method possible is used.

3. The hierarchy of safest methods begins with, not to work at height.

So if you accept these three points from the WAHR then the HSE really don’t have to have a Law to ban ladders for cleaning windows… because through this Law they practically already have!

In fact I don’t use ladders for any of my commercial work at all. It’s WFP or Unger Telescopic-Poles or they don’t get cleaned – with the site owner’s agreement and that’s only about a dozen windows out of 1,000’s.

[windows_chepstow]

Macleod,

I agree with your three points?

We have a Working at Height Directive and we have a Health and Safety Executive.

I guess the HSE's job is to educate those who work at height about the directive, safe practise and enforce the Directive, so what is it you're asking?

[macleod]

are ladders in effect banned?

[Jake]

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[macleod]

refer to above 3 points...

[windows_chepstow]

Macleod,

There's lots going on with reference to this, but basically, in a nutshell, ladders are to be used as a last resort when it comes to window cleaning.

The WAHD became effective in April 2005; yet many window cleaners still routinely use ladders.  I still often use ladders, even though I also use a WFP; so I'm not anti-ladder.  I just understand the rules.

I've read from two different sources that the HSE aren't going to enforce the WAHD with reference to window cleaners till Spring, next year.  Apparantly, it's to give us window cleaners time to get kitted out with WFP!

Even then, I think they'll be mostly innefective at stopping us from using ladders.  The poo will only hit the fan when we have an accident.

[Paul Coleman]

Just been on the phone to HSE and the Local council

Does anyone argue with thess 3 points?

1. Both the window cleaner and the business that is having their windows cleaned must do a risk assessment for every job.

2. Both the window cleaner and the business must ensure use the safest method possible is used.

3. The hierarchy of safest methods begins with, not to work at height.

So if you accept these three points from the WAHR then the HSE really don’t have to have a Law to ban ladders for cleaning windows… because through this Law they practically already have!

In fact I don’t use ladders for any of my commercial work at all. It’s WFP or Unger Telescopic-Poles or they don’t get cleaned – with the site owner’s agreement and that’s only about a dozen windows out of 1,000’s.

I believe the three points you've raised are basically correct though my understanding of the situation (and I could well be wrong) is that it's not quite as simple as you have written.

On point 1.
Although a risk assesment should be carried out for each job, if you are not using employees (i.e. you're a sole trader), that risk assesment need not be written down (unless the customer specifically requires it).  It is sufficient to look around a job and note mentally any risks (if any) and work appropriately around those risks.  If this is not possible or reasonable then the risk should be removed or the part of the job where there is a non-removable risk should be left.  A classic example is a flakey looking flat roof that needs to be stood upon in order to clean some windows.  Securing the ladder -  probably with a slip resistant device - is generally considered OK but can you really be certain that the roof will hold your weight.  I've had my foot through an old chipboard roof before following torrential rain where water seeped through the joints (N.B.  I believe chipboard has been banned as roof decking for some years now because of this problem).

Points 2 and 3 may be a grey area in some situations.  Sometimes the safest method cannot produce a job of sufficient quality.  The regs appear to be silent on how much regard needs to be given to quality of work.  e.g.  there are some situations where WFP doesn't clean very well such as oxidised frames, poor quality of puttying, bad seals, flakey paintwork.  I suppose taking the view that a reduction in quality is a price worth paying for the sake of safety is a valid one but it might be hard to convince a customer.  Personally, the only time I use a ladder now is to get on flat roofs - apart from a couple of jobs where I need to go over the top and down the other side.  Because I'm lowering the ladder from the roof I cannot ensure non-slip at the bottom so I only do this if there is a solid wall to foot it against.

If I'm wrong about any of the above, someone please say so as I am willing to learn too.

[Steve Lowe]

Hi Macleod
                I am one of the individuels that attended and coresponded with the Hse meetings etc and ladders are not banned nor would most sensible people want them to be.What you have been told by your council is correct and although you will get a lot tell you otherwise its when an accident happens that is when the poo hits the fan. Ladders can be used but only when you can justify its use through a risk assesment and even then it needs a stability device top or bottom.

Steve

[bumper]

If you not got wfp, you no other choice then  to use ladders.

[windows_chepstow]

If you not got wfp, you no other choice then  to use ladders.

There's an article in PWC Mag that covers this point exactly.  I can't remember what it said though. 

But my mag is in the car, and I don't want to go outside.  And I've paid for my copy, where as you ugly lot obviously haven't. 

Then there's copyright.  Can I copy what's in there for you lot?

[Extremeclean]

Ladders are NOT banned BUT can only be used when all other means of doing a job at height have been ruled out. What Steve Lowe says is correct. It would be crazy to completely ban ladders but as Steve says a risk assesment MUST be made before using ladders. The WAHR do have grey areas that are open to interpretation but wait until the first bad accident and prosecution. Thats when the poo will hit the fan as others have already said.  The WAHR applies to private properties just as much as commercial ones.

Heres a good little site which I use. It has a link to the WAHR which if you read it correctly and not with any bias does make it clear.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/flashindex.htm

Rich.

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

Health and Safety these days is not about Health and Safety.  It's about INSURANCE CLAIMS!!! and the risk of them!!

Take, for example, the council who stripped a horse chestnut of the conkers - apparently "for chilgrens safety" - A load of Conkers!!! it was because some claim crazy car owner had a conker fall on his nice new car and, apparently, dint the bodywork.  Then some smat arsed lawer decides to seu the council for letting thier tree drop conkers!!!

The local authorities and companies are nervouse that they could easily get seud if someone falls from a ladder.
My opinion is :
If you employ people then think very seriosely about using ladders.  Probably been using them for years and they are like a part of your body but if one of your workers has a fall and injures themselves they will need to claim something and, iff you have overlooked some detail of the complicated HSE Regs, some smart ared lawer is gonna have you!!!

The local contractor in our town, who has been doing the town hall for 30 odd years and local council work is now approaching me to do some high work where he has experienced questions about the use of ladders.

David

[macleod]

so if you follow the 3 points i mentioned above then ladders are so far down the list of options that they are the absolute last choice which means that if the only way to clean a window is to use a ladder then you probably shouldnt clean it cos it clearly must be the type of window wher you are likly to fall... so in effect ladders, working at height to clean windows is banned...

[windows_chepstow]

so if you follow the 3 points i mentioned above then ladders are so far down the list of options that they are the absolute last choice which means that if the only way to clean a window is to use a ladder then you probably shouldnt clean it cos it clearly must be the type of window wher you are likly to fall... so in effect ladders, working at height to clean windows is banned...

Yes.  The principle of the WAHD is that working at height should be a last resort.  Flat roofs and stuff.

Anyway, here's what the PWC Mag say about this subject.  I hope I'm not breaching copyright...

'What if I work from ladders because I don't have a pole system?'

Tricky question.  Technically, if the job could reasonalby be done with a water-fed pole, then you are in breach of the regulations by using a ladder.  However, the HSE has indicated that it will take a lenient approach to enforcement in the first year in order to help window cleaners who don't yet have the appropriate equipment to get kitted up.  That period of lecniencey will end next spring, so it's definitely time to start looking into going water-fed'

[Johnboyfree]

[quote author=macleod link=topic=26466.msg200670#msg200670 date=1161022955]
so if you follow the 3 points i mentioned above then ladders are so far down the list of options that they are the absolute last choice which means that if the only way to clean a window is to use a ladder then you probably shouldnt clean it cos it clearly must be the type of window wher you are likly to fall... so in effect ladders, working at height to clean windows is banned................
Hi,Not All,or Ever.....If you dont own a WFP.System you will still be able to use ladders.If you think Im wrong,ask HSE.At the moment we have a part 1 water ban on in the South East Where I live,if it gets worse they can implement a stage 3 drought order,this prohibits all water use and stand pipes will be put on in the streets,thats the theory,when I asked HSE about this they said you will still be able to use ladders but not WFP.as this would be banned,so therefore as this is now acceptable due to a drought order you could argue as its safe to use ladders when a drought order is in force it follows therefore you can use ladders when its not

[macleod]

HSE wouldnt tell you how to clean a window as it depends upon the risk assesment (as per point 1)

WFP is not banned rather

therefore even if you have a temp ban the company may still decide the safest way to clean their windows is not at height (as per point 2) this doesnt mean use ladders instead (see point 3) instead you have to work your way down the hierarchy of safest methods and ladders are still the last resort... so in effect ladders are banned even in a drought

a side point Thames, and other SE Water companies amended the drought order to allow Window Cleaners using pole systems to be able to draw water as long as it is used with a tank  http://www.nfmwgc.com/documents/Drought_Order_Decision.pdf)

[macleod]

in answer to the question "can I work from ladders because I don't have a pole system?"

can you drive a car if you dont have a lisence? yes but its breaking the law.

can i change a fuse but a dont have a screwdriver? yes but its not safe.

can i

just cos you dont do a risk assesment and dont have the 'right' equipment doesnt mean you should carry on and break the law. it doesnt mean that its ok. it doesnt mean that we should all say"...but Fred has been cleaning windows for 20years and he is a nice bloke..."

ignorance (or should i say avoidance) is not a get out of jail card.

[Sir Squeaky]

Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. :

I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.

[windows_chepstow]

Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. :

I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.

Class!   

[carl stanton]

thank you sqeeky!!

spose wfp needs to be justified with manipulated rules!