[macleod]

question.

if you know that a well known company that has a number of Residential Homes has their windows cleaned at least on 1 property unsafely (ladders not footed, not secured, etc etc) then what would you do as a 'professional' window cleaner?

i telephoned this company to speak to H&S, was put through to their Head of Properties who told me (and i am not kidding) that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident and anyway that they were not liable!

i telephone the House Manger who said they this window cleaning company accept the risks and are covered by their insurance!

this is not ladders versus wfp. this is safe versus not safe. so please dont change the subject.

what would you do?

can i notify the local council? HSE? jeremy paxman?

mac

[Helen]

You could notify authorities, but why stress yourself out over it?
As long as the  WC company had offered a risk assessment and method statement and proved insurance, which has then been accepted by the customer, what can be done?

[window pain]

question.

if you know that a well known company that has a number of Residential Homes has their windows cleaned at least on 1 property unsafely (ladders not footed, not secured, etc etc) then what would you do as a 'professional' window cleaner?

i telephoned this company to speak to H&S, was put through to their Head of Properties who told me (and i am not kidding) that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident and anyway that they were not liable!

i telephone the House Manger who said they this window cleaning company accept the risks and are covered by their insurance!

this is not ladders versus wfp. this is safe versus not safe. so please dont change the subject.

what would you do?

can i notify the local council? HSE? jeremy paxman?

mac

IF ITS A CASE OF SAFETY WHY DONT YOU INFORM THE WINDOW CLEANER IN QUESTION?

[Sir Squeaky]

Why stick your nose in?
What's it got to do with you?

Trying to pinch his work?
Just because his ladder isn't footed doesn't mean it's dangerous.
Typical WFP user attitude. :

Sounds like you've already been told this anyway.

If you do manage to cause trouble, don't be surprised if you get your car covered in paintstripper or something.....
You won't get any sympathy here.

[Trevor Knight]

question.

if you know that a well known company that has a number of Residential Homes has their windows cleaned at least on 1 property unsafely (ladders not footed, not secured, etc etc) then what would you do as a 'professional' window cleaner?

i telephoned this company to speak to H&S, was put through to their Head of Properties who told me (and i am not kidding) that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident and anyway that they were not liable!

i telephone the House Manger who said they this window cleaning company accept the risks and are covered by their insurance!

this is not ladders versus wfp. this is safe versus not safe. so please dont change the subject.

what would you do?

can i notify the local council? HSE? jeremy paxman?

mac

IF ITS A CASE OF SAFETY WHY DONT YOU INFORM THE WINDOW CLEANER IN QUESTION?

Totally agree, what your doing is underhand. I wouldn't do that to any window cleaner, traditional or not, I am WFP.

In my eyes thats just as bad as deliberately undercutting if not worse!

Sorry, but there are thousands of buildings out there that need a window cleaner, its just a case of asking?

[Toff]

And i bet you do everything right, unless it dangerous and you had the lads health in mind you should stay out its like undercutting someone, if everyone is happy apart from you who cares.

[Philip Hanson]

Just because his ladder isn't footed doesn't mean it's dangerous.

If it isn't secured, which means tethered to eyebolts/structural beams, used with a stability device (rojak stopper etc) or as a last resort 'footed', then it is illegal. 

That's no-one's opinion, its nothing to do with WFP versus ladders, thats the law.  No need to take my word for it, look it up for yourself.

The next time you see a billboard, look below it and you'll see eyebolts.  That's because its illegal to simply plonk a ladder against a wall and begin working from it, and the bill board companies know that, as do other trades.  SKY for example have had to change their working practices when installing satellite dishes to comply with the WAHR.

-Philip

[ronaldo]

NO   

[brett walker]

You should be proud you are conducting your business in a pfofessional manner and they are not you should just carry on with your own business and let  them carry on with theirs.
You wont be the only one thats noticed them working in that manner, its good to see on this forum that theres so many professionals i bet we could all tell a story or 2 about people working unsafely around us, weve all taken risks and im a culprit myself i would only grass them up if they try to undercut you with work

Brett

[Mike_G]

Philip, are you sure?

[Philip Hanson]

Mike, you don't need to take my word for it.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2005/20050735.htm#sch6

That is a link to The Work at Height Regulations 2005, see what it says under sched 6, section 5 "requirements for ladders"

There is widespread ignorance about the requirements for ladders, but yes if you use them unsecured you are breaking the law.

But there are loads of good devices to secure ladders, the Rojak stopper is just one.  There's ladder levellers, tethers, anti-slip devices.  Securing a ladder has never been so easy, its just that most window cleaners don't know that you can, or that its now the law.

-Philip

[macleod]

so, if you say a car drivng in an unsafe manner what would you do?
if the car crashed and the driver was seriously hurt, what would be your reaction?

serves him right? well id prefer him to drive safely and not injure himself or others in the first place...

this isnt about wfp versus ladders, as that is just nonsense so again please dont throw that in my face squeaky clean - i really respect you but this isnt about 'taking' this work away.

just cause i havent had a car accident ever doesnt mean i dont need car insurance...
just cause i havent had a car accident ever doesnt mean that i will never have an accident...

my feelings are if this residential home doesnt care about H&S would you want your dear old mum to be looked after by them?

this is about health and safety... and just as dangerous driving can be reported to the police to whom can we report dangerous window cleaning?

by the way i have spoken to the guy who ownes the cleaning company before and his attitute is he dont care, all his lads are 'self employed' its up to them.

mac

[Robert Parry]

I think that it's more important than that guy's, window cleaning is classed as the most dangerous job available in this country, even more so than being a soilder.

Those of us involved in the industry are constantly maoning about cowboys, clients etc, yet, when it comes to safety, and what to do about those who insist on breaking the rules, we get all high and mighty, I wonder if anyone ever thinks about the possibility of having to inform a victims family in the case of a fatality.

If this chap does have an accident, dont you think that it would be reported in the local press, thus informing client's of our's that window cleaners in general practice unsafe working methods, perhaps, not such a big deal for those who use wfp, but could  be another nail in the coffin for the trad's out there.

Regards,

Rob

[macleod]

by the way i really am shocked at you trevor knight...  this company said that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident... they didnt care if he worked unsafely!!!

what the heck are you doing as a moderator if you are happy with people risking their health and others?

and who linked this thread to undercutting?? are you really a fool? 1 bloke working off a ladder in an unsafe manner will always be cheaper... if i quoted for the job id be more expensive...

i asked you guys who always change the subject not to do it this time... keep your pet hates to one side...

i really am concerned as to whom do we report unsafe working practices?

mac

[twt]

i use wfp and ladders so im not baised, but i think some people on here are big girls and should mind there own business ladders are dangerous but people on here make it sound like if you use a ladder your more than likely gonna die. if you are that worried speak to the window cleaner in question.
 the law states

"5. A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by -



(a) securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;

(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or

(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness"

the law does not give a list of recomended anti slip or stabilty devices, the window cleaner may have articulated feet fitted to the ladder or may have any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness. also how many people take note of section 7

"7. No interlocking or extension ladder shall be used unless its sections are prevented from moving relative to each other while in use."

many ladders do not have the means for doing this so even if you have a safety device you may still be breaking the law.

[P®oPole™]

W.A.H.R 2005 IS ABSOULTE RUBBISH NOT EVEN WORTH THE PAPER ITS PRINTED ON.

All trad guys I wouldnt worry about this so call working at height diretive regulations whatever you want to call it, it means nothing in the real world. If you work on site then it may come into affect. Its aload of crap

(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or

(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness"

This means nothing absoultly nothing, you could use a screwed up scrim under your ladder feet and it counts. Theres no way it would stand up in any court of law if you at least done something to stop the slipping which could be absoulty anything like a crisp under eact foot and that is classed as the arranged effective device. Who are they to say whats effective when there is no mention of the so called effective devices.

But be advised, if you have an accident or anyone who works for you does, YOU WILL KNOW ABOUT IT THEN!

  ProPole

[Paul Coleman]

i use wfp and ladders so im not baised, but i think some people on here are big girls and should mind there own business ladders are dangerous but people on here make it sound like if you use a ladder your more than likely gonna die. if you are that worried speak to the window cleaner in question.
 the law states

"5. A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by -



(a) securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;

(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or

(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness"

the law does not give a list of recomended anti slip or stabilty devices, the window cleaner may have articulated feet fitted to the ladder or may have any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness. also how many people take note of section 7

"7. No interlocking or extension ladder shall be used unless its sections are prevented from moving relative to each other while in use."

many ladders do not have the means for doing this so even if you have a safety device you may still be breaking the law.

That section 7 looks interesting.  So ladders are made so that there are two strong brackets that hook over the rungs.  That only stops movement in one direction.  It's hard to see how the ladder could move in the other direction so I wonder what the point of that bit is.  Anyone know?

[Paul Coleman]

W.A.H.R 2005 IS ABSOULTE RUBBISH NOT EVEN WORTH THE PAPER ITS PRINTED ON.

All trad guys I wouldnt worry about this so call working at height diretive regulations whatever you want to call it, it means nothing in the real world. If you work on site then it may come into affect. Its aload of crap

(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or

(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness"

This means nothing absoultly nothing, I could use a screwed up scrim under my ladder feet and it counts it wouldnt stand up in no court of law if you atleast done something to stop the slipping which could be absoulty anything I could put a crisp under eact foot and say that was my arranged effective device. Who are they to say whats effective when there is no mention of the so called effective devices.

 

The odd thing is that I was once working on a very slippery stone patio.  The Rojak wouldn't hold the ladder but a heavy duty oven cloth worked beautifully.  N.B.  This was thoroughly tested with someone at the base of the ladder doing some "footing" with their feet a few inches away from the stiles as a just in case measure.  I've also heard of people using bath towels.  It doesn't look very professional but it was the best way for that job IMO.  WFP wasn't an option as they were very old leaky leaded windows.

[macleod]

ok you win... i didnt want this to go down the route of ladders versus wfp....

but thats why i rarely post on this site any more...

i care about window cleaning and it eanrs me a good wage.

i win work every week from window cleaners who say that the Law is [to quote shinner] rubbish...

just casue my neighbour is a nice bloke doesnt mean he can drive his car in a reckless manner, and its the same with window cleaning, just cause the window cleaner is a nice bloke or been cleaning the windows for 20 years doesnt mean he should be reckless and allowed to continue working... that is rubbish!


by the way notice that i didnt mention the WAHR  rather i said this is about Safety.

[dai]

the only use I could ever find for the rung locks was for lifting the extended ladder from above.