[macc]

I don't think I will be travelling to Scotland or anywhere else to have a lesson in window cleaning by someone who cleans them like that. I have far more pride in my work than to turn up looking very scruffy, splash a bit of water about and give it one pass of the brush, no rinsing, and not even touch the frames or sills!   I am a total proffessional whether I am cleaning trad or wfp, and a perfectionist, I can't do the quick splash and walk away thing, its not in my nature
And the reason that I use wfp on commercial is that some commercial customers want it done that way because of insurance ect.

Groundhog.

Sad to say mate Peter knows more about wfp than us two put together & thats not even the start of what he knows.

If i had the chance of working along side some one with knowledge like that for a day, i would. I think it may be something i ask soon.

Macc

[Sir Squeaky]

You would think you would be desperate to get out there with Ian and see for yourself one way or the other.  And if it did do a lovely job, you could buy a system and share in all the benifits that Ian enjoys.

Peter Fogwill

Sorry, but even if it did a better job than squeegee I still wouldn't want it.

Don't want the hassles.
Look at the topics around here.....nothing but wfp problems.

My job is easy, but rewarding thanks to the skills I've learned.
Why get a brush to do it for me, and go through all that bother at either end of the day?

[Peter Fogwill]

I don't think I will be travelling to Scotland or anywhere else to have a lesson in window cleaning by someone who cleans them like that. I have far more pride in my work than to turn up looking very scruffy,

Scruffy? I can't see scruffy, I don't see a suit if that's what you mean. Do you go to work cleaning windows in a suit?

splash a bit of water about and give it one pass of the brush, no rinsing, and not even touch the frames or sills!

I think you had better take another look, the frames and sills were cleaned, and the windows were rinsed.  The brush travelled over the frames and the sills were cleaned with the water passing over it.

And BTW the customer in the video clips don't pay to get their frames and sills cleaned, that is an extra they now get with the WFP.  And before you get on your high horse about how unprofessional that is, it is up to the customer if they want to pay to have the glass cleaned only, or if they want to have the frames and sills cleaned as well.

  I am a total proffessional whether I am cleaning trad or wfp, and a perfectionist, I can't do the quick splash and walk away thing, its not in my nature
And the reason that I use wfp on commercial is that some commercial customers want it done that way because of insurance ect.

Yes yes heard it all before.  Some people have to stay on a window for a long time, not because they are more professional like they would like to have people believe, but because of their inadequate cleaning technique.

Like I said in a post on here years ago, why not spend your energy trying to make your job easier, instead of slagging down anything that may be a bit different to what you do now.

Peter Fogwill

[Peter Fogwill]

Well said.  I am on the coast in the Watchet - Minehead area and the stuff on the windows is more like glue and if it doesnt come in off the sea it comes off Exmoor.

I'm soon to be into WFP and trad but am getting worried the wfp wont cope unless I have gallons of water available for  scrubbing and rinsing.

JohnL

John, you will be surprised by the results.  For a start you won't get as much dirt sticking to the glass as you do now, they will be much cleaner when you go to them than they are now.

Peter Fogwill

[macc]

Sorry, but even if it did a better job than squeegee I still wouldn't want it.

Don't want the hassles.
Look at the topics around here.....nothing but wfp problems.

My job is easy, but rewarding thanks to the skills I've learned.
Why get a brush to do it for me, and go through all that bother at either end of the day?

Thats the good thing about choise,

Macc

[P®oPole™]

  I am a total proffessional whether I am cleaning trad or wfp, and a perfectionist, I can't do the quick splash and walk away thing, its not in my nature
And the reason that I use wfp on commercial is that some commercial customers want it done that way because of insurance ect.

Yes yes heard it all before.  Some people have to stay on a window for a long time, not because they are more professional like they would like to have people believe, but because of their inadequate cleaning technique.

Like I said in a post on here years ago, why not spend your energy trying to make your job easier, instead of slagging down anything that may be a bit different to what you do now.

Peter Fogwill

Well said Peter.

Groundhog im not having a dig, but you could at least know the correct technique of how to use wfp, before starting all these flase and unjustified comments.

ProPole

[WavieDavie]

I was refering to the way in which they were being cleaned on the video clip at the start of this thread, there is no way that you can clean a window properly like the man in that clip.

Well, it's time for me to jump in with my size 10 boots!

I've been with Peter when there was no way he could have cleaned the windows properly. He was giving me a demonstration before my purchase of his trolley system, over three years ago. That was when he was still "on the tools" and not fully into manufacturing systems as he is now.

My demo was given, not on his own house or at a neighbour's round the corner, but at one of his commercial customers  . . . http://www.macdonaldhotels.co.uk/houstounhouse/index.htm?ac=ggppc1 a VERY upmarket hotel! They were cleaned in exactly the method shown, and I have to admit that I thought "What? Is that it?" but it was a regular job on well-maintained windows and frankly that's all they need.

The quality of the customer reflects on Peter's job, not the other way around - do you REALLY think a business of that stature would stand for having a slap-dash end result to reflect on it's reputation? Of course not!

I'm not here to promote trad v wfp - I use ladders, wf pole, extension pole, microfibre - whatever is best for the job at hand. Just like people, it's different strokes for different folks, and getting yourself all het up about pixels on a screen just detracts from everyone else's quality of life on the boards.

Love and Peace, man.

[groundhog]

Propole I know how to wipe a window with a brush on a stick, and anyone who thinks that Peter is using good technique in that clip needs their eyes tested
You know nothing about me or my techniques, but I can assure you that I always do everything correctly when it comes to window cleaning, my reputation has been built by word of mouth, and I have a whole stack of letters at home saying that I do a great job.

[Ladders]

.



Don't expect to turn out work at a rate of knots when you first start WFP, and don't expect to acheive gleaming results instantly.
you can't just pick up a pole and be an instant expert in WFP, there is a learning curve to go through.

Ian.
I think that maybe you should have added this quote to your first post, that would have evened it out.

Jeff

[groundhog]

I think you will have to agree that if you brush over the glass once it will not be as clean as if you brush it 2 or 3 times, common sense really

[rosskesava]

I've been following this thread with interest.

One thing we go by is what the customer says about wfp and while some customers may be old moaners, some can actually make valid judgements.

Some of it is that they think 'splashing water from a brush' can never be as good as trad methods regardless of the end result and some don't care provided the real grime is gone and some inspect their window afterwards and some just accept wfp.

Putting that aside, what I find interesting is that this year we have picked up a lot of work from dissatisfied people who have had their windows done previously from companies or individuals who solely use wfp.

Bit by bit, like it or not, wfp will become the general way windows are cleaned. To me, that is an undisputable fact.

My point is mainly that we have only got 2 jobs this year from customers who were dissatisfied with their trad window cleaner but maybe upwards of 200 who were dissatisfied with their wfp window cleaner. Some of those are people who pay serious money to have their windows cleaned by any method provided the windows end up clean.

Considering that wfp around here is in the minority, that says something.

Whether it's the technique, the purity of the water, the brush head, the water flow or the rinsing, it does not matter. The complaints about the results using wfp far and extremely outweigh complaints about windows done by traditional methods and not every customer is wrong and not every wfp user is doing the job wrong. When is the evidence going to be accepted that by and large, wfp is not as good but wfp does an ok job and with wfp, windows can be cleaned that previously were impossible or too risky to do.

When it comes to commercial work where the standards are not so exacting, we have not had one complaint about using wfp but have not got one job where the previous window cleaner/company used wfp.

And, yes, we use wfp everyday as well as trad methods.

Also, a few weeks back all along the coast near here the windows were thick with salt. Some places the glass looked frosted. When it's like that we do all commercial jobs, as far as is possible,  with a mop and and squeegie. Our experience is that with wfp, unless you use gallons and gallons on each job, the windows dry to a mess of streaky smears. By which time, you are long gone. Unless you've experience slimy salt on glass, you may not believe me. You need a clean scrim and fresh water for each job.

As for the speed the windows were done in the original video clip, they may have ended up perfect or ended up far from perfect. There was no proper inspection or any type of verifyable or provable analysis. I could have just sprayed a garden hose at some windows and claimed the job was done quickly to prove how quick a garden hose is. Sorry to be picky, but how does anyone know how clean the windows ended up?

[Pat Purcell]

[
Bit by bit, like it or not, wfp will become the general way windows are cleaned. To me, that is an undisputable fact.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         20 years ago we were washing windows with pure water , wfp has been around longer than that its still not a commonly used way to wash windows over here.Im not saying your wrong just that I dont think its indisputable,

[Ian_Giles]

Ross,
I agree that WFP will become the norm for window cleaning at some point in the future.
I don't agree with your views on the quality of finish that you can get with WFP.
To have picked up over 200 accounts of dissatisfied customers is pretty damning though, that is huge, and I really mean a huge amount.
You are coastal, perhaps this has a big bearing on the fact?
During the winter a huge amount of salt was put on the motorways, I've done a couple of accounts that had salty windows as a result of this and they took an awful lot longer to get right.
But on the  standard UPVC windows that are now in the majority of houses I would say that they come up as good or better than windows done trad.

And I'm constantly coming upon repeat cleans that don't even look as if they need cleaning.

200 accounts is virtually a full round for many, and for you to have picked up so many in your area then there has to be something else in the equation there somewhere.
If you have picked up that many, then others must also have picked up a huge amount too, as you say, WFP is still in the minority around your area, but it appears that no one is doing a good job with it.

200 accounts at what? an average of say £6.50??? thats £1,300 worth of work that is a  staggering amount for one firm to pick up as a result of dissatisfied customers alone.
I absolutely do NOT doubt you, you have said many many times of the poor results WFP achieves in your area, and the fact that you have yet to see a job done WFP that you could say was better than one could be done trad.

That is totally at odds with most WFP users on the forum in other areas of the country, and certainly at odds with my own findings.

It just has to be your area, maybe beause it is coastal?

David@St Ives also has salt related problems and also says that he never comes across windows on his repeat cleans that look almost perfect after a month has passed by.

The one window that Peter cleaned took him 17 seconds, I'm forever stopwatching myself and standard casement style window takes me a consistant  30 to 35 seconds to clean.
This is a window in good order and not one with bird poo on or one that has borne the brunt of a lot of wind and weather.

for anyone that has not heard my description of a standard casement window, it is about  5 to 6ft wide and about 3'10" tall.
It has one small opening light, a fixed pane below the opening light and a tall opening pane to the one side of this.
One such as this in UPVC, including a full wash of the frame takes me on average 30 to 35 seconds to clean.
If there is a film of weathering over this, maybe a splash of bird poo, spiders and their debris on the frames etc, then it will probably take at least double that time to clean.
Were you to add on salt deposits I've no doubt it would take even longer.

In 2 and a half years I have only lost 3 accounts at most due to WFP.

Were Ross's findings the same across the country or the same in my area I would have to have lost a great many more, or at the very least have had countless complaints, and I have certainly not had any of those...

I'll draw my musings to a close...time for work!  (trad and WFP )

Ian

[groundhog]

Good post Ross, I have also gained lots of customers who were dissatisfied with wfp and I am a good 20 miles from the coast. I think the reason is that window cleaners buy these systems after being told that they can clean windows much quicker than trad by the suppliers. They then go out and rush there work like Peter in the video, and the result is a very poor finish.
I don't think that wfp will become the norm for domestic work as the customers don't like it, not just because of the poor finish that some wc leave, but for many reasons. I recently took over cleaning 8 houses in a local village because the customers were unhappy with them being cleaned by wfp, and each of these customers had a wfp horror story to tell! From one lady who slipped up on a wet wooden floor inside her house as so much water had leaked inside that the floors were soaked! and another who couldn't stand seeing so much water being wasted just to have her windows cleaned every month!
Sorry guys but as far as domestics are concerned trad is here to stay

[DASERVICES]

  Guys especially Groundhog,

   WFP IS NOT THE PROBLEM, it's how it's used due to bad salesmanship. Some
   company's sell this product but do not show the operator how to use it,  then
   off goes the guy ending up with bad results and giving WFP a bad name.

   Luckily this forum is great for people using WFP, if you notice not many are
   loosing customers because they use WFP correctly due to all the good tips
   on this forum.

   If there was no WFP would we saying the squeegie does a rubbish job,
   NO we all know it's the operator.

   So lets stop bashing WFP or trad, they both do good jobs. I prefer to be safe
   in my work enviroment this is why I went WFP, results are the same if not
   better.

   Lets start encouraging each over so we can earn more dosh in our pockets.

   Cheers

   Doug

[Peter Fogwill]

I think you will have to agree that if you brush over the glass once it will not be as clean as if you brush it 2 or 3 times, common sense really

Would you soap up and squeegee more than once, if the window was clean after the first time? 

Peter Fogwill

[Alex Gardiner]

Hi Guys,

what an interesting thread.

I am not going to comment on PF technique. we all have our own way own of working.

Salt on windows:

We have a couple of rounds in Sunny Cornwall, right on the sea front. We only use WFP on these and yes you do have to use a bit more water and your technique has to be spot on (no cutting corners) but with practice you can do a smear free job every time.

Alex

[groundhog]

Peter I always give the windows a good scrub, so I always get good results. How could you possibly be sure that the 1st floor windows you were cleaning were completely clean after just one pass of your brush?

[Peter Fogwill]

Peter I always give the windows a good scrub, so I always get good results. How could you possibly be sure that the 1st floor windows you were cleaning were completely clean after just one pass of your brush?

Experience.

Looking at the glass before you start.  Looking at the glass when you finish.  Looking at the window below, both before you start and when you finish.  Looking at the glass on the house next door before and after,  etc, etc, etc.

Just like traditional, experience.

Peter Fogwill

[Alistair@AWC]

Cant wait until Ive got that experience, I wouldnt dare clean a window that quickly at the moment

Saying that most of mine are intial cleans that havent been touched in years.

Alistair