[neil100]

Groundhog,

I dont know where you live, It could be if you live near the sea or for instance in an Industrial area were the windows are harder to clean correctly due to poulltion fall out if local w/c are revertaing back to trad on domectic work.

I have talked to w/c in my area who are commercial w/c who work for w/cleaning companys and do domestic customers as part of their job, But in the main they clean mainly commercial propertys. All these commercial w/c think wfp is rubbish on domestic work or not as good as trad.

Personally I think that is because a domestic customer is far more concerned with the quality of the job then a commercial customer. So the w/c are a bit slap happy on the commercial front knowing they can get away with it. They cant on domestic work, So the customers complain more. But that is down once again to the w/c and how good they are at cleaning windows.

I have 27yrs experince as a w/c, My freind as 25yrs, Another couple of freinds of mine have 20yrs experince each. They have domestic rounds and all of us think that wfp on domestic work gives a better finnish then Trad on most domestic propertys.

So we are not wet behind our ears. We all know what we are talking about when we compare wfp and trad w/c. We have over 85yrs combined experince with trad w/c, No one is pulling the wool over our eyes with wfp.

If I thought wfp was rubbish for domestic work, I would revert back to trad. If wfp  was no good then Customers would leave me in there droves. That is not happening the Opposite is happening in fact and my round is getting bigger and bigger due to the recomendations I am getting with wfp.

I am not trying to stamp on anyone who speaks against wfp but I do think you are in the minority and I do wonder how good you actually are with wfp.

Nel

[groundhog]

 I never said wfp was rubbish, if you read my post properly you will see that I was talking about the way that the man in the video is cleaning the windows. He was clearly not doing a good job. I believe that you can make a good job with wfp, but you have to take a little time and care, not a slap dash attitude as in the video clip. This shows wfp at its worst!

[Peter Fogwill]

Groundhog, maybe you should come up to Scotland and have a few lessons on water fed pole window cleaning, I am sure you will learn something.  Infact bring the 6 local window cleaners with you as well. 

I may even teach you a thing or two about traditional window cleaning while your here.

It would be money well spent and the trip would pay for itself in the first week you got back to work.

Peter Fogwill

[Peter Fogwill]

I never said wfp was rubbish, if you read my post properly you will see that I was talking about the way that the man in the video is cleaning the windows. He was clearly not doing a good job.

Right, what evidence do you have of a good job not being done?  Maybe you have better eye sight than me, as it is not clear to me a good job is not being done.

Peter Fogwill

[Peter Fogwill]

I've already seen lots of poor results, and so have a lot of other people.

You cleaning one house when you know I'm inspecting it isn't going to reverse what I've seen.

If I get time I'll have a look.
I'm sure you'll do a lovely job.
But I know how it often does turn out.....

...and how can you have a bungalow that takes me 40 mins?
It would have to be best part of 50 windows!

I don't know of any 15 bedroom bungys.

And if he did do a lovely job then it would be proof that the WFP is a good piece of equipment and that the poor results that you have seen is down to bad workmanship.

You would think you would be desperate to get out there with Ian and see for yourself one way or the other.  And if it did do a lovely job, you could buy a system and share in all the benifits that Ian enjoys.

Peter Fogwill

[Ian_Giles]

Groundhog,

The man in the video clip was Peter fogwill, and if you read his replies in this post you will understand what is going on in the video.

Just because he was quick does not mean he was crap!!

Those were windows that came up perfectly well, on others as he explained in his replies, he would treat them differently should they need it.

It takes me about 25 to 35 seconds to clean the average window, some are done quicker, some are done slower, and on almost all windows, all of the frames and sills are also cleaned properly in that time.

David, as you live in coastal, windy cornwall it is hardly surprising that WFP is much harder work, we hear very similar comments from Rosskesava in breezy Brighton.

[AuRavelling79]

I've already seen lots of poor results, and so have a lot of other people.

You cleaning one house when you know I'm inspecting it isn't going to reverse what I've seen.

If I get time I'll have a look.
I'm sure you'll do a lovely job.
But I know how it often does turn out.....

...and how can you have a bungalow that takes me 40 mins?
It would have to be best part of 50 windows!

I don't know of any 15 bedroom bungys.

And if he did do a lovely job then it would be proof that the WFP is a good piece of equipment and that the poor results that you have seen is down to bad workmanship.

You would think you would be desperate to get out there with Ian and see for yourself one way or the other.  And if it did do a lovely job, you could buy a system and share in all the benifits that Ian enjoys.

Peter Fogwill

Peter,

Just my view, but the problem is that Squeaky has dug a hole for himself and is too fearful to change - which is why when Ian has laid down the gauntlet he comes up with "non-reasons" to avoid what he sees as a confrontation which will result in him being proved wrong.

Squeaky, you will do what you want - not long ago you posted about re-training and leaving window cleaning and if you're going to do that I wouldn't leave it any longer.

However, for what ever reason some of us are sticking with what we are good at and are looking for ways to improve our businesses. Like me, many pride ourselves on providing a good service and whether we use trad. or wfp that can be done.

For me on domestic as well as commercial, overall wfp allows me to clean many more windows than I could before. After eighteen months of wfp I now clean to a high standard, on average, in earning terms about 30/40% more than I did on traditional. What kind of businessman wouldn'tuse a tool that could do that? Unless he had rocks in his head or he was so lacking in confidence that he could convince his customers as to the benefits and follow through with good results.

Newbies!

Please - please do not be put off of wfp - I bought a trolley system from Peter in Feb 2005 and have slowly changed bits here and there so that I am running a tank from my estate car with microbore etc. The advice I got and continue to get from Peter and from Ian, Roy, Tosh, Neil and others on this forum is invaluable.

It can be done, you can earn more, more safely and have customers who are amazed at how clean and streak-free wfp can be!

[Ladders]

.



Don't expect to turn out work at a rate of knots when you first start WFP, and don't expect to acheive gleaming results instantly.
you can't just pick up a pole and be an instant expert in WFP, there is a learning curve to go through.

Ian.
I think that maybe you should have added this quote to your first post, that would have evened it out.

Jeff

[AuRavelling79]

Just to show some newbie's how quick WFP can be, here is a link to Peter Fogwill's site, and it shows him actually cleaning windows with WFP, 2 clips on the page, one shows him getting out the van and and setting up, the other shows him cleaning 2 windows....

What you will see is the kind of speed you work at on a regular repeat clean house....enjoy

http://www.window-tools.com/trailer-videos.htm


Ian

Ladders - re-read the above - it says  ".... on a regular repeat clean house...."

[Moderator David@stives]

What that clip did not show was getting tangled up in the hose and the hoase snagging as you are reeling it in and having to walk back 50 metres to free it like this lol.

I will be taking more photos this week so stay tuned

Dave

[Moderator David@stives]

also dont forget this

[Peter Fogwill]

I just hope that he is a £2.50 merchant, because that is all its worth if you clean windows like that.

Yes spot on with the price but that was 20 years ago.

As for not many wfp window cleaners going back to trad on domestics, all the window cleaners that I know in my area, and I can think of at least 6, have gone back to mainly trad on domestics, and use the wfp for commercial and conservatory roofs ect. Also I have read about others on other less biased forums, also going back to trad.

What I don't understand is if it is good enough for commercial how is it not good enough for domestic?  Do you do your commercial cleaning at a lower standard to your domestic?
If the answer is yes which it must be, then that is not very professional.

Peter Fogwill

[Ian_Giles]

Nice pics Dave

There are many hassles with WFP, it's one of the reasons why Squeaky would not be able to cope with it
Problems with pumps, batteries, hose connecters, blockages, filters, membranes, resin, dog poo and so on.
I never even try to sell the system to Squeaks, its just too complex for him to get his head around, too many things to go wrong and stress him out.

But just to remind everyone, this thread was about how quick you can work with WFP. and a simple demonstration of it in action

but you'll never get me going back to the 'simplicity' of ladder again!

Ian

[macc]

Well said Ian.

Wfp does have hassles that come with it, along with costs but in my opinion the pros well out way the cons, for me there is no way im going back to ladders.

Squeaky, for me & many others its for us, wfp has transformed work, i hated wc & was going to jack it in. I respect you for sticking to trad, it goes both ways. 

Macc

[JM123]

has anyone else noticed how squeeky is often very quick to say that people on the forum try and change all the trad threads into trad v wfp debates?  Well guess what he's done with this thread? 

[groundhog]

I don't think I will be travelling to Scotland or anywhere else to have a lesson in window cleaning by someone who cleans them like that. I have far more pride in my work than to turn up looking very scruffy, splash a bit of water about and give it one pass of the brush, no rinsing, and not even touch the frames or sills!   I am a total proffessional whether I am cleaning trad or wfp, and a perfectionist, I can't do the quick splash and walk away thing, its not in my nature
And the reason that I use wfp on commercial is that some commercial customers want it done that way because of insurance ect.

[Moderator David@stives]

hmmm

All I seen was a simple comment off squeeky regarding the speed of the guy in the video.

I think you should all grow up and stop persecuting Squeeky for having a different view point.

from what he has seen he wants to stick to trad and has seen the hassle of wfp so good luck to him.

Is he not entitled to his own opinions.

All this reminds me of the school bullys, bullying people because they were different.

Dave

[groundhog]

Well said Dave

[JohnL]

Peter

Here in Cornwall you DO have to give the windows that extra scrub and rinse, i have been caught out too many times by windows that look clean initially only to find out later they were full of salt spray.

You can not always see it from the ground, anyone in a coastal town will tell you the same, they will also tell you seagull mess can be well and truly stuck and can take up to a couple of minutes to remove off each pane.

None of my windows are any where clean when i return to them after a month, they are either full of salt , bird muck , traffic dirt or snail trails so extra attention is always required

Dave

Well said.  I am on the coast in the Watchet - Minehead area and the stuff on the windows is more like glue and if it doesnt come in off the sea it comes off Exmoor.

I'm soon to be into WFP and trad but am getting worried the wfp wont cope unless I have gallons of water available for  scrubbing and rinsing.

JohnL

[Moderator David@stives]

John

Wfp will work, not as fast as the vid, but you will get good results if you apply yourself correctly.

I live in the worst area for wfp, facing the north coast, with the south coast only 5 miles away,along with thousands of seagulls and every type insect you can imagine leaving mess all over the windows, so if i can do it here anyone can do it,

Dave