[groundhog]

Hi Ross, you talk a lot of sense mate

[Peter Fogwill]

I know I was not going to write anymore but......

I just cannot believe windows would end up 100% clean and spotless that quickly. Maybe if they were all but clean to start with.

I'm not saying it is not so, I am saying that based on my own experience, I don't believe it.

So in every case windows can be cleaned that fast?

So you are agreeing that they could be spotless in that time, if they were all but clean to start with?  No one has ever said every case, these are all but clean, regularly cleaned windows.  In this particular case the windows got what they needed.

I don't intend to sound rude and I'm not 'having a go' but......

I just don't believe it.

You do believe it if they were all but clean to start with which they were because they were regularly cleaned windows.

Peter Fogwill

[Mike_Boxall]

I have just been reading the recent posts from this thread http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=19609.60

Now some of the times being quoted on the Concept 2o WFP systems is much the same as the times I cleaned the windows on my video clips.  Mike mentions 10 houses being cleaned in half an hour and dosn't doubt that this can be done.  Now 10 houses would = around 100 windows, and I take it that is 2 men working.  Now I make that each man cleaning around 50 windows in half an hour, much the same as I was doing in the video when you take into account adjusting the pole and moving round the house.

Is the guys doing demo's for Concept 2o cleaning the windows properly? are they unprofessional?
I doubt it if they are showing prospective clients what the system can do.  I am sure like me they would have left the windows spotless.  I know it can be done properly in the times quoted with my systems, and any other water fed pole systems.

Peter Fogwill

Hi Peter

I was going to leave you to deal with this topic on your own on the basis that if you're going to get free advertising then you deserve to work for it  but I think you've now had more than your share of unfair criticism on this one.

It's a difficult one really isn't it. On the one hand there are lots of people that have been taken advantage of by certain suppliers and have good reason to be sceptical and yet on the other hand there are plenty of people out there cleaning windows at an incredible rate and earning a decent living. It was only 2 weeks ago that I was chatting to a guy who has now started to drop his prices because he's getting so quick at WFP he feels uncomfortable charging the prices he started with. In fact, his exact words were 'I often feel like doing a bit of gardening while I'm there as the windows take no time at all' I kid you not! (and I'll give his phone number to anyone really interested in talking to him)

I have absolutely no doubt that the windows could have been left spotless in Peter's video but I also accept that there are areas with more than their fair share of problems which may explain why some people find it hard to believe. I have a lot of respect for Ross's views and opinions and he clearly finds it hard to accept these facts and figures. Obviously a salty environment can make a significant difference to productivity in much the same way as the variety, access and frequency of a round. There's no doubt that you'd get a much different range of windows in Brighton as you would in somewhere like Milton Keynes and maybe, together, all these factors would be enough to make someone question these claims. However, there are plenty of people cleaning windows like this in most areas of the country.

By the way, 10 houses in half an hour is pretty exceptional and I expect the guys were making an effort because they were being watched but an average of 10 houses in 1 hour is perfectly reasonable for regular cleans on established and concentrated rounds.

Regards

Mike

[rosskesava]

Believe it or not we also clean windows on a regular basis. Quite a few of them everyday. Sorry to sound sarcastic but I am not stupid. some of them are cleaned with wfp so I do have a bit of experience. We do none where we jump out of a van and clean just the fronts though like Body and Doyle.

Just by cleaning windows regularly does not mean they will be all but clean next time. Maybe around where I live is odd then? Windows around here get dirty after a while.

The video then was a bit misleading. So not in every case can windows come up clean in that time?

As most domestic windows are cleaned every 4 weeks, generally, and if there was no wind, no rain and very low levels of pollution and the property is miles and miles from any roads or sources of airbourne dust and dirt and was in a place where the natural geographic features produce zero air turbulence, then maybe yes, the windows would stay clean but for all the year?

If the windows stay that clean then why do they need their windows cleaned regularly?

As for 'no one said not in every case', the video implies the opposite.

I didn't realise the video was to show how windows that were already clean  could be again cleaned spotless with pure water.

I though and assumed the video was showing just how quickly windows, as a general term, could be cleaned.

Maybe your video needs subtittles to explain things.

Also, what is the actuall point the video is making. It can only be either, that windows that need cleaning can be cleaned this quick, or that windows that are already clean can be re cleaned this quick?

Is cannot be both or neither? Unless the video is for selling wfp products without being, how shall I put it, 'exact'. If it is a selling aid, then be honest about it. I think most understand how sales get made and how when selling, what is what gets put in the best possible light but when making the point to those who have already bought and have the t shirt and badge?

I do use wfp everyday.

Hi Mike

I am not having a go. I am trying to diplomatically point out simple truths. For example and forget sea salt and all that, we do the windows of a large place 8 miles from the coast. It is on a busy major road next to a horrifically busy roundabout. Which is why the owners have them done weekly. They get covered in grime from traffic pollution. We have to go over the windows with a mop and squeegie first as wfp does not remove the grime.

Fact. Not fiction. No exageration needed.

I'll give you the address and when we'll be there and come and see for yourself. You or anyone else can do the place with wfp in anyway you want. I'll stand and watch. Every 2 to 3 months we have to jet spray the place. My point is that in perfect circumstances then, yes, window cleaning with wfp may be that quick but generally for most w/c's with a varied round, that video is misleading.

We do also do the windows of a large pub with wfp. 34 of them and they come up ok with wfp in much less time than with trad methods. They don't come up brilliant but they are of an acceptable standard but...

How many on this forum clean just the front of a house where you can jump out a van, with no obsticles or worries, and clean windows that are already almost clean? There is more to it than that. What I am saying is that wfp is very worthwhile tool for window cleaning but don't exagerate and then treat that example as the normal. In other words, be real and honest.

I clean a shop where I can do the whole lot in under 45 seconds trad style. Does that mean every shop is that quick? Maybe I need to video it to promote trad methods to show every one how quick trad methods are?

Sorry, but that is how wfp sometimes gets portrayed and often on this forum, wfp is everything to all men window cleaning. Lets just be real and then discuss this, that and the other about wfp. That is when people learn and not by perfect examples in perfect circumstance with salesman type spin.

When I get the time, I'm going to get a garden hose, spray it all over my windows, video it and post it to show just how quick windows can be cleaned  with a garden hose. No further proof needed as the video is all the proof that is required to make it true.

Cheers

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi Ross

We could go backwards and forwards all day and all night. You could provide examples of problematic cleans and I could provide examples of easy cleans. You're absolutely right people need to consider all aspects but didn't you make the point in one of your earlier posts that WFP will drive prices down because of the improved productivity? Isn't that the crux of the matter? WFP is considerably quicker and therefore more profitable?

I think that's the point of the whole topic.

Regards

Mike
 

[Sir Squeaky]

Well said Ross.

I think the views of the last 9 pages have been pretty unanimous.
Nobody has windows that clean that there's no dirt to remove.

If that was the case the customer wouldn't want to pay to have them done.

If the whole house is taking 2 or 3 mins max, then I assume you're charging £2 or so, not £7 or so......?

If not, then how can you live with yourself wetting clean windows in seconds and asking £100+ per hour?

That's not window cleaning, sorry.

[supernova77]

I can't beleive that this thread has got to 10 pages long! 

Can't we all just clean windows in the way that we want to and be done with it?

Andy

[rosskesava]

Hi Mike again

One thing I cannot disagree with about wfp is the increased profit.

That is so true and I can only agree.

My point was, and still is, lets be honest about wfp. My point was not about profits.

I prefer honesty and truthfull facts. How can a downstairs window end up clean when water that has run down the walls from the upstairs end up 100% perfect?

A video that just show someone jumping out a van and spraying water over a window with a quick brush over?

That for me, does not show wfp in a good light because those who buy find out it is not like that soon enough. So many wfp's come and then in a few months, they are gone. But the wfp sellers have got the money. Sorry to be so blunt but isn't that so? I've lost count of the wfp vans I've seen over the years and then never seen again? That is how business works but that was not my point.

Hi Squeaky Clean

I just want people to be truthfull with no spin but I guess that spin is how things are now. Except that if I said to a customer that their windows were clean when they wern't then all the spin in the world means nothing.

10 pages means that there is something in it.  I think?

[Peter Fogwill]

Believe it or not we also clean windows on a regular basis. Just by cleaning windows regularly does not mean they will be all but clean next time. Maybe around where I live is odd then? Windows around here get dirty after a while.

The video then was a bit misleading. So not in every case can windows come up clean in that time?

I thought it would be obvious that people would realise that the windows would not come up clean in every case.  Nearly every person that contacts me by phone asks about birds dirt, and I tell them that although it comes off with the brush it sometimes takes quite a bit of scrubbing, and in some cases the water is best turned off while doing this.

It does say on the site "The purpose of these videos is to show exactly how long it can take to do a couple of windows with the trailer system."

I don't think that is misleading.

As most domestic windows are cleaned every 4 weeks, generally, and if there was no wind, no rain and very low levels of pollution and the property is miles and miles from any roads or sources of airbourne dust and dirt and was in a place where the natural geographic features produce zero air turbulence, then maybe yes, the windows would stay clean but for all the year?

The property is next to the road and they do stay relatively clean.  Perhaps after a storm they would need more attention, but they were not done in the video after a storm, and they were relatively clean.

If the windows stay that clean then why do they need their windows cleaned regularly?

It is a well known fact that windows stay clean longer after being cleaned with a WFP, I have never heard of any window cleaner offering to reduce the frequency of the clean because of this.  The customer pays a monthly fee to keep the windows in a clean state.

As for 'no one said not in every case', the video implies the opposite.

I didn't realise the video was to show how windows that were already clean  could be again cleaned spotless with pure water.

I though and assumed the video was showing just how quickly windows, as a general term, could be cleaned.

These windows had very little on them that particular clean, just like they are more times than not.  Just like 99% of the round was more times than not.

Maybe your video needs subtittles to explain things.

I don't think so, it shows how quick a couple of windows can be cleaned with a WFP.  That is what it is supposed to do and that is exactly what it does.

Also, what is the actuall point the video is making. It can only be either, that windows that need cleaning can be cleaned this quick, or that windows that are already clean can be re cleaned this quick?

It is to show how quick regularly cleaned windows can be cleaned with a WFP.  The windows had very little on them, but had they not been cleaned then that very little would accumulate.

Is cannot be both or neither? Unless the video is for selling wfp products without being, how shall I put it, 'exact'. If it is a selling aid, then be honest about it.

It does show how windows that need cleaning can be done that fast with a WFP for the reason stated above.  The windows would need cleaning because the customer is paying per month to have the windows cleaned, and if the work was not carried out then I would not be meeting the customers needs.

I have never denied that it was not a selling aid, why else would something be taking up bandwidth.  It is exact though.

Hi Mike

I am not having a go. I am trying to diplomatically point out simple truths. For example and forget sea salt and all that, we do the windows of a large place 8 miles from the coast. It is on a busy major road next to a horrifically busy roundabout. Which is why the owners have them done weekly. They get covered in grime from traffic pollution. We have to go over the windows with a mop and squeegie first as wfp does not remove the grime.

I don't see you as having a go, you are entitled to your opinion like anyone else.  If this bothered me I would do what others do and just stop answering questions.

Peter Fogwill

[Peter Fogwill]

Well said Ross.

I think the views of the last 9 pages have been pretty unanimous.
Nobody has windows that clean that there's no dirt to remove.

If that was the case the customer wouldn't want to pay to have them done.

If the whole house is taking 2 or 3 mins max, then I assume you're charging £2 or so, not £7 or so......?

If not, then how can you live with yourself wetting clean windows in seconds and asking £100+ per hour?

That's not window cleaning, sorry.

But Squeaky, you clean windows faster than someone using a WFP how can you live with that?

The customer is getting a better deal with the WFP as the windows are not all spotty after the first rain shower hits the glass after you have left.

Peter Fogwill

[Peter Fogwill]

It's a difficult one really isn't it. On the one hand there are lots of people that have been taken advantage of by certain suppliers and have good reason to be sceptical and yet on the other hand there are plenty of people out there cleaning windows at an incredible rate and earning a decent living. It was only 2 weeks ago that I was chatting to a guy who has now started to drop his prices because he's getting so quick at WFP he feels uncomfortable charging the prices he started with. In fact, his exact words were 'I often feel like doing a bit of gardening while I'm there as the windows take no time at all' I kid you not! (and I'll give his phone number to anyone really interested in talking to him)

Hi Mike, thanks for the input.

I have people phoning me all the time telling me how much more money they can earn, or how much free time they have.  But on the other hand you are always going to get people who will never be able to use a WFP regardless of  advice. 

Like I have said on here before there is a well known local window cleaner that can't use a squeegee properly and he has been cleaning windows with one all his working life.

Peter Fogwill

[rosskesava]

Blimey.......

Obvious to who?

The prospective customer watching the video?

How about a video showing the problems of getting hose over a fence, rose bushes, around corners where the hose gets snagged and all that. Then finding windows left open etc etc etc. Why not show what goes on in real life with wfp? Why the rose tinted glasses? There again, I not trying to sell anything.

Phew...

How about a truce?

You sell what you sell by how you see fit and I'll carry on seeing things as a window cleaner using the end product after spending my money and not as a prospective buyer. I was a prospective buyer once also. I was shown a video. I was sold on just how easy it all was. About 5% of the video was true and that was what the salesman missed which was the profit increase. The rest was cods wallop. Window cleaning with wfp is anything as easy as that video makes out. That is the point you've still missed that I'm making.

Our motives are very different. Mine is to be truthfull about window cleaning. I am not selling anything in my postings and I have no other motive than how I find things window cleaning.

If I ever go into the sales game, then maybe I'll post differently.

You are in the selling game and I am not. I clean windows and you sell what the windows are cleaned with. We have different perspectives except that I am posting only with one purpose in mind, the truth as I understand it and not potential profit.

We see things from different view points.

So - truce?

Cheers

[Peter Fogwill]

Blimey.......

Obvious to who?

The prospective customer watching the video?

Yes, the customer watching the video.

Phew...

How about a truce?

You sell what you sell by how you see fit and I'll carry on seeing things as a window cleaner.

Our motives are very different. Mine is to be truthfull about window cleaning. I am not selling anything in my postings and I have no other motive than how I find things window cleaning.

If I ever go into the sales game, then maybe I'll post differently.

Cheers

The purpose of my postings was not to sell it was to defend myself.  Like I said earlier I left myself open for attack by non believers, but it was not me who started the thread off in the first place, I only responded when unsavory things were written about me.

My motive is also to be truthful about window cleaning.  I have been an active member of window cleaning forums long before I started selling WFP systems

Peter Fogwill

[rosskesava]

My motive is also to be truthful about window cleaning.  I have been an active member of window cleaning forums long before I started selling WFP systems

As in dirty windows can be cleaned in seconds?

Non Believers? This is not a religion.

My point is that wfp is that not simple and not that easy. I don't understand what is so hard to understand. I use wfp. I have experience of wfp. It is not what the hype says it is. Your video is misleading. Simple. You are a salesman. I am not.

[Peter Fogwill]

Believe it or not we also clean windows on a regular basis. Quite a few of them everyday. Sorry to sound sarcastic but I am not stupid. some of them are cleaned with wfp so I do have a bit of experience. We do none where we jump out of a van and clean just the fronts though like Body and Doyle.

The backs of the that house was done as well.  Just because it was not shown on the video dosn't mean it was not done.  The house next door wasn't shown being cleaned  on the video either, neither was the rest of the work done that week or that month.  What has the fact that the back wasn't shown being cleaned got  to do with the discussion?

Peter Fogwill

[rosskesava]

Oh.

So why wasn't the back of the house shown as well?

Or come to that, how about harder jobs?

Or why don't you admit the simple truth, the video is a sales tool?

[Peter Fogwill]

As in dirty windows can be cleaned in seconds?

Yes, maybe a few more seconds than was shown on the video, but yes seconds.

Non Believers? This is not a religion.

Maybe I should have used the word sceptics instead of non believers, but it amounts to much the same.  The word believer can be used in a different context other than religion.

You are beginning to get petty now.

Peter Fogwill

[Peter Fogwill]

Oh.

So why wasn't the back of the house shown as well?

Or come to that, how about harder jobs?

For the same reason that the whole months work wasn't shown, there was not enough room on my digital camera for it.  The backs of the house are just as easy if not easier.

Or why don't you admit the simple truth, the video is a sales tool?

I have admitted it at least twice recently.  Are you reading the posts?

Peter Fogwill

[groundhog]

It looks like a busy road on the video, after 4 weeks those windows would be filthy

If your customers are happy with that sort of clean then fair enough, but my customers expect a little bit more.

[Peter Fogwill]

It looks like a busy road on the video, after 4 weeks those windows would be filthy

If your customers are happy with that sort of clean then fair enough, but my customers expect a little bit more.

Groundhog I said I was going to ignore your comments as you don't answer questions asked, and just butt in with a snide remark when you see something you would like to comment on.  That's not the way a debate goes. 

You can't know what was on that glass before I cleaned them, or how dirty the windows are after 4 weeks.  You can only go with what they may be like in your area, and like I think we have all agreed on, the windows can vary from area to area.

Peter Fogwill