[rosskesava]

Hi Ian

This is my last posting on the subject. I did write out a long one last night and it wouldn't post so maybe that was destiny so to speak. I did also explain more about the ex wfp customers which numbered 148 not the nearly 200 I quoted.

Wfp can give near on perfect results. So does a squeegie with wfp water and a proper technique.

I know it's been done to death and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe. With wfp it needs almost perfect conditions. Decent frames and newish glass.

What about badly oxidised ali frames? Or ones with flaking paint? Or ones where the paint has gone powdery? Or when the water pours through badly fitted frames or through the flat underneath? What about grease? From hair? We do a night club and wfp doesn't remove head and hair prints on glass. The list can on and on. Greasy Joe restaurants and cafes with outside seating? Try getting grease off glass with wfp? I could give example after example by why bother. Wfp rules and does a perfect job. I agree. Salt? No problem with wfp. Traffic grime on a busy main road? I'm sure wfp can be used to remove paint also prior to repainting and clean carpets at the same time as well as wash indoors wall paper with no residue marks as well as leaving the ground safe and dry when it's marble flooring or moss covered yorkshire flag stones.

I'm certain commercial customers won't mind the walkways being left wet on a dry day or councils won't ever get to object to hoses across foot paths or pavements untill a few claims have become public.

The same can be said of trad methods but with different scenario's.

My point is that wfp is just one more way to clean windows and in my experience it does not do as good a job on the whole. It's does have inherant problems due to the amount of water used. It does a quicker job but not as good in most cases. Low sunlight or not. Powdery leaking frames or not. It does reach that hard to get to windows that most customers understood couldn't be cleaned any way.

More importantly, wfp will push down the costs of cleaning windows with wfp because they can be done so quickly. Or hadn't anyone thought of that? It's only time before the customer catches on.

Anyway, I'm not so bothered if every wfp user in the country disagrees with me because we have not only picked up business through wfp, whether it is by bad workmanship or the wfp system or not, but we now charge extra for ex wfp customers to do the job trad style.

I did my own windows this afternoon with wfp and they came up nearly perfect Last weekend I done 2 doors along as a favour and they came up awfull. I went over them with a mop and squeegie........... Same age windows and frames except my windows get done monthly but my neighbours hadn't been done for years. I used maybe 100 ltrs as the amount of water didn't matter.

This is the best time for wfp users to make money. It won't last. They make money based on prices for the job being done trad style and the time it takes  to do that job trad style. Joe public will catch on.

So I think we have to agree to disagree and it's not personnal.

Cheers

ps I've added this later - and I thought last nights attempted posting was long.

[Moderator David@stives]

If the first photos were after i had cleaned them i would have hung myself by now lol

Mind you in the early days i came close but not quite, where i live i have to be extra carefull on first cleans due to the amount of salt which can be lurking on the frames as you can see in the first photos the window were only 2 months before thew last clean. Most of my work is monthly with only an handfull which are 2 monthly and i have only kept these to stop other window cleaners picking them up as they are bang in the middle of some good jobs and it keeps the door shut so to speak.

Dave

[Ian_Giles]

I agree with most of the scenarios Ross stated, I do lots of shops and pubs, greasy marks are a right pain, and no, WFP does not like them
Spend time scrubbing it off with WFP and you risk contaminating the bristles and then re-contaminating the glass of other windows for a while.
I have my applicator ready and will give greasy marks a quick scrub first.
Smooth floors?
couldn't agree more.
flaky windows?
Oxidized frames (aluminium or painted)
Totally agree, WFP will struggle on them, though you can often do them to a good standard once you master the right tecnique.
Powdery frames can be a pain trad too, as can those windows where the black rubber seal around the glass has oxidized, done trad those are a real nightmare.

I only have a few accounts (domestic) that I would consider high risk for WFP, almost all of them work very well indeed.
On the commercial front I have quite a few I do trad rather than WFP.

For me, WFP doesn't replace trad, it merely replaces the ladder.

I'll agree to a point about prices too, but only to a point, I think WFP will drag prices down on georgian and so on, the time difference is vast, and it can only affect prices in the long term.
On your average domestic account (a 3 bed semi) the time difference just isn't great enough to affect prices.

Those that think that just because they are quicker means they can charge less money will lose out in the end, they spend a great deal of money on WFP, their overheads will increase and then they drop their prices??
so they end out earning less or more than they were earning before (once longer term costings are taken into consideration)....they won't last.

short term prices may well be affected, but you will end with newbies thinking they can turn around and clean every window as fast as Peter does those two in the video's, they will get dumped, will probably give WFP a bad name in the process too unfortunately!
But once they happen on someone who does the work to the right standard (for the sake of argument another WFP user) Their confidence will be restored and they will be happy to pay a higher price.

6.30am....gotta get to work!

Ian

[groundhog]

So you get perfect results everytime Ian if the frames and sills are clean, but you never go back to check them, so how can you be sure?  This makes Peters technique seem even worse as he makes no attempt to clean the frames whatsoever!

[Ian_Giles]

Now now groundhog, if you think I said then you did not read my reply!!

I'm happy to continue debating the issue, but if you are going to counter my statement, you must at least be accurate!

I can no more get a perfect result everytrime with WFP that I can with trad, but I'll do a VERY GOOD job everytime with both methods.

No one can lay claim to perfection, look hard enough and you will always find fault, very few jobs that any of us do will be 'perfect'

Now and again with WFP you will come across a job that you will not get right no matter how hard you try.

At that point I use trad, but I won't work off a ladder any more, access only for me now.

when I price up a house I always check the frames for oxidization, even some UPVC ones can oxidize.
If I come across windows that I think may be a problem I go straight back to the customer and explain it to them.
I tell them to check the windows over and if they are really bad I will come back and rectify, using trad on downstairs, but sorry, only WFP upstairs
If the job isn't suitable for WFP I'll recommend Squeaks (I did so with a solicitors office, no way could I have done it WFP)
and so far I have only done so with two accounts, both very well priced I might add.

Perfect everytime?

No.

But a good job to a high standard almost everytime.
We can all drop a clanger with WFP from time to time, even the best of us....that also applies to trad too you know.

Ian

[groundhog]

OK, but I am right that you need to ensure that the frames, especially the tops are clean if you want a good finish from wfp, and as I said Peter makes no effort to clean them at all!

[rosskesava]

Hi Ian again

I did say I was going to post anymore about wfp and I won't as such.

6.30am? And you have the where with all to write a coherant post at that time in the morning?

Hi Groundhog,

About the video, I did write this above but there is no way of knowing the end result. Good or bad - and that is the problem with the video. It shows half the story.

Cheers

[Jeff Brimble]

Groundhog I only ever do glass only, its faster and I charge double for the frames,  it doesnt affect my finish. I dont usually even clean the cross bars(transoms ? ) just give it a min then do the lower bits if needed.

[robbobon]

THAT MAN AS NOT CLEANED THSE WINDOWS PROPER!

[robbobon]

THAT MAN AS NOT CLEANED THOSE WINDOWS PROPER!

[JohnL]

does that count as 2 posts?

 

JohnL

[Peter Fogwill]

THAT MAN AS NOT CLEANED THOSE WINDOWS PROPER!

Oh yes he has.

C Senor, I don't think I have been aggressive at all considering what was said about me in the earlier posts.  Have you read it all, even the personal insults??  Whether I sell systems or not I am not going to sit back and take that without defending myself.

Groundhog, you don't answer questions so I will disregard all your posts on the subject from now on.

Peter Fogwill

[windows_chepstow]

Peter, don't bite!

When you take the bait, then you've lost the argument.

Sometimes it's better to say nowt.  My Mother always said, 'Never argue with fools'!

That's why I don't get into any WFP discussions with Squeaky!

[Pj]

Peter,
I have read all this thread, but not tonight!

I would say at this juncture:   If you are going to post a moving presentation of cleaning a window with wfp, and I'm sure you meant to be nothing but helpful, you have to accept you are setting yourself up as a target!

Regardless of how you try to defend the reasons for putting it there in the first place.
Your intentions, no matter how noble, may be interpreted however others perceive them.  

I'm sure your main intention was to sell systems!  No criticism meant.  If you help, that's a bonus.

[windows_chepstow]

Peter,
As for Tosh......

Weeelllll, the Japs only ever imitated their masters

Posted by Tosh:

Sometimes it's better to say nowt.  My Mother always said, 'Never argue with fools'!

[Peter Fogwill]

Peter,
I have read all this thread, but not tonight!

I would say at this juncture:   If you are going to post a moving presentation of cleaning a window with wfp, and I'm sure you meant to be nothing but helpful, you have to accept you are setting yourself up as a target!

Regardless of how you try to defend the reasons for putting it there in the first place.
Your intentions, no matter how noble, may be interpreted however others perceive them.  

I'm sure your main intention was to sell systems!  No criticism meant.  If you help, that's a bonus.

I have set myself up as a target and not for the first time, not because I have posted a couple of videos on my website, but because the windows were cleaned faster than what most people can clean them themselves.

I stand by everything that is written on my site, and would also like to draw attention to the quote under the video clips which states...........

"The purpose of these videos is to show exactly how long it can take to do a couple of windows with the trailer system. How much time the window cleaner takes to clean such windows is up to them, some window cleaners may spend more time rinsing or thoroughly going over the frames, again that is up to the individual window cleaner. These videos were also taken before the launch of the new Autobrush. The Autobrush makes for even easier window cleaning."

A few people on here know that it is very feasible that they particular windows could be and probably were cleaned very satisfactory with the method adopted on the video clips, and in the time that it took to clean them.
A newbie coming on here can make up his or her own mind who to believe on this subject, and I have no worries about the outcome of that.

I suppose that the clips were put on my site in the first place to help promote certain items and I have never said otherwise.  They do show though how quick you can clean a couple of windows with a water fed pole.

For me this has been one of the best posts I have been involved in for a long time, and I thank Ian for starting this off.

Peter Fogwill

[Peter Fogwill]

I have just been reading the recent posts from this thread http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=19609.60

Now some of the times being quoted on the Concept 2o WFP systems is much the same as the times I cleaned the windows on my video clips.  Mike mentions 10 houses being cleaned in half an hour and dosn't doubt that this can be done.  Now 10 houses would = around 100 windows, and I take it that is 2 men working.  Now I make that each man cleaning around 50 windows in half an hour, much the same as I was doing in the video when you take into account adjusting the pole and moving round the house.

Is the guys doing demo's for Concept 2o cleaning the windows properly? are they unprofessional?
I doubt it if they are showing prospective clients what the system can do.  I am sure like me they would have left the windows spotless.  I know it can be done properly in the times quoted with my systems, and any other water fed pole systems.

Peter Fogwill

[rosskesava]

I know I was not going to write anymore but......

I just cannot believe windows would end up 100% clean and spotless that quickly. Maybe if they were all but clean to start with.

I'm not saying it is not so, I am saying that based on my own experience, I don't believe it.

So in every case windows can be cleaned that fast?

I don't intend to sound rude and I'm not 'having a go' but......

I just don't believe it.

[groundhog]

I don't believe it either!!

[groundhog]

Jeff I am dissapointed, I thought that you were a window cleaner not a glass scrubber!!!!!!!