[bpb]

Hi All,
Has anyone ever had any problems cleaning cream / white stair carpets?
I have cleaned 2 sets of stairs recently - vacuumed with a good sebo vac, then wet cleaned with an extracta HWE machine.
Initially the carpets looked dirtier!

The white stairs were 80/20 wool mix, cut pile, the cream stairs had more man made fibre - possibly 50/50 ? and these were a loop pile.

The white stairs weren't too bad but I could see dirty grey marks after cleaning.
The cream stairs were grubby to start with but after my first pass with the wand (top step) - they went black!

Is it purely down to me not vacuuming enough? Would it be better to vac with a hand held machine?

Is it safer to towel clean these stairs?
Should I use a filtration line remover to rectify this problem?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thankyou

[carpetclean]

sounds like an underlay problem !? how old are the carpets !?

[Steven Edwards]

If you leave rubber underlay down for years it eventually crumbles into a powder substances which feels like grit/dirt. This possibly is what your drawing up through the carpet to cause the discoloration.

[bpb]

Hi,
thankyou for your responses - in the first instance - the white carpet, was in a a 3 year old house - so carpets only 3 years old.
The second job, carpets were 5 years old.
Any further thoughts?
Thankyou

[John Kelly]

Were these marks more pronounced on the nose end of the stairs. Sometimes when a lower grade carpet is placed on the stairs the pile opens up and the dark backing shows through. This is sometimes highlighted during the cleaning process.

[carpetclean]

you need to know if the underlay was changed at the same time as the carpets. some people try to save money by keeping the old underlay which end in results like this. i have before now took a small section off a step to inspect the underlay by easing it off the gripper just past the curve in the stair very easy to take off and put back providing its not  tacked.  pain in the arse but has saved me getting this problem.

[Steven Edwards]

you need to know if the underlay was changed at the same time as the carpets. some people try to save money by keeping the old underlay which end in results like this. i have before now took a small section off a step to inspect the underlay by easing it off the gripper just past the curve in the stair very easy to take off and put back providing its not  tacked.  pain in the arse but has saved me getting this problem.

Hi,

It is probably the case that the carpet was changed 3 years ago but the underlay has been down 15 years. This is common thing for people to do.

Don't pull the carpet back to inspect the underlay on the stairs if you don't know what your doing because you are then liable then should you fail to secure the carpet back onto the gripper (which need to be bolstered in). Secondary back carpet can slip easily if its not secured properly. Doesn't take much for someone to have an accident and then you are responsible.

Secondly, on the bottom step some fitters tack it some just secure by using gripper. The ones who tack it have more than likely made 'a turn' on the bottom step. This normally occurs when the carpet they are fitting is expensive ie an Axminster or Wilton. This turn allows the carpet to moved up to allow even wear over time.  A cheap tufted usually is not turned.

My suggestion would be to pull back part of the carpet in the hallway and inspect the underlay that way. Use a tucker knife to secure back.

If you are being occused of bad workmanship or there is a potential legal problem arising then I would suggest that you get a well known carpet fitting company in to do a full report, which in this case should exonerate you.

[Damian]

Steven i think you will find that its been a very rare practise to put a "turn" on the bottom step nowadays and has been for over ten years! Custys do not want to see marks where nails have been hit in. Gripperrod (tradename) or smoothedge is the norm-even on axminster carpets. Provided the carpet has been "sized" beforehand to prevent fraying then its gripper all the way down and a piece left over to replace the whole step should wear take place. Also most new houses have a "bullnose" bottom step which is capped and banded and is very hard to peel back. By looking at the underlay in the hallway you are not getting a good indicator of wear as its the nosings of stairs that wear out and this is where this carpet is apparently blackening. 

Regards Damian

[Steven Edwards]

Steven i think you will find that its been a very rare practise to put a "turn" on the bottom step nowadays and has been for over ten years! Custys do not want to see marks where nails have been hit in. Gripperrod (tradename) or smoothedge is the norm-even on axminster carpets. Provided the carpet has been "sized" beforehand to prevent fraying then its gripper all the way down and a piece left over to replace the whole step should wear take place. Also most new houses have a "bullnose" bottom step which is capped and banded and is very hard to peel back. By looking at the underlay in the hallway you are not getting a good indicator of wear as its the nosings of stairs that wear out and this is where this carpet is apparently blackening. 

Regards Damian

Damian, with all respect what you have written is nonsense and misleading.

1. I am part of a large fitting team with 32 years experience and if fitters are not putting a turn on the bottom step when fitting axminsters or wiltons then there doing the customer out of years of wear on the stairs. Todays fitters are not craftsmen they just throw the carpet down half the time.

2. When you do a turn, you don't do it on the bullnose but on the bottom straight step.

3. When you pin a turn the pins are placed every half inch along the bottom of the step so you can't see it and you cant see the indentations or pin heads if done correctly and neatly.

4. You say that a piece is usually left over to replace the whole step. What if the carpet is patterned then you can't do this. When you 'change a tread' what your doing is moving the tread part up 6-8 inches so its now on the riser and the good part which was on the riser is now on the tread.

5. 70% of houses I fit have bullnoses which are always capped and banded and they are also pinned under the nosing and banded using spray adhesive and pins to make sure they are thoroughly secure.

6. Members should not attempt to release and refit carpet on stairs unless they have the correct tools and know what they are doing for reasons Ive mentioned in my other post.

7. Pulling back part of the hallway carpet just below the stairs is sufficient indication as to see what the underlay is like, condition etc. You will know that there is a problem on the stairs just by feeling the underlay. Its flat, soily, gritty, powdery, discolored and has no bounce.

Like I stated, get an independent fitting company in to make a full report.

I've only been on the forum for a few days but some of the misinformation is incredible.

[bpb]

Hi thanks again for the help below.
The first carpet (white 3 years old) was put down at the same time as the underlay - it was a new house.
Unfortunately they have a wooden floor in the hallway.
The carpet was quite expensive, I know the people and it is a very nice, large house - so it's not a cheap and nasty thing.

The points mentioned in the second house could well be true - it may well be 15 years of dust etc. that I have pulled from the underlay and floorboards? This was certainly the worst one.

Hopefully i managed to rectify the first carpet by misting and towelling.
The second carpet i improved, but it didn't look great.

Thanks again.

[Damian]

Ha Ha. Stephen as you say you are new to this forum would it not have paid to find out that i am a fully skilled carpet fitter aswell!!? I have been fitting with my father since eight years of age and he was department store trained(very highly regarded!) I am very much involved with the family floorcovering business even now i just clean for myself.With regard to what i said it is all very true and in the REAL world. Do you put a turn on modern BCF wiltons? Are you still using the blue cut tacks? It is old hat now but If as you state you must turn axminsters for movement of tread then the pattern soon runs out!! People generally renew before wear and very few domestic custys want a heavily patterned axey! (how many manufacturers have gone under in last five years!) Commercial carpets are a different matter and are fastened in various ways but i have never come across a turned and tacked step even then  : Finally before you try to do me down ever again my STANDARD and KNOWLEDGE of my job has blessed me with contracts to various large companies and councils including Sheffield for all manor of work(commercial and domestic regularly ongoing i might add!!) ...........Oh and it also granted me access to Australia to live on the strength of my credentials!!! 

Regards

Damian.

[HolmansUKLTD]

That told him

[Steven Edwards]

Haven't got time to argue with a infantile.

[Damian]

Steven, my father and i used to turn and tack risers way back when! We even used to hand sew joints then use copydex and hessian tape as a reinforcement! This used to be the way granted. But my father is fifty two now and realises that there are more modern ways to fitting carpets and customers prefer nice neat edges! You rant all you like as it seems to me that you are not familiar with modern techniques of fitting floor coverings and will probably bang on about the good old days!  : Times change and you have to keep up!! If i was to turn and tack tomorrow then i wouldnt get into the van before the custy rang moaning! NEVER EVER try to put me or my skills down as i know i would always be far superior to YOU!! I have encountered every aspect of my trade as has my Father-HIS team-AND MINE! Between us we employ five highly skilled individuals and we have very successful businesses. I have never nor would give misleading advice to anyone EVER. Just a question tho' wise man? you say you have thirty two years experience at fifty nine years of age? SOO you started your full apprenticeship at twenty seven? mmmm sounds a little late to me as this game usually starts at sixteen. I am not questioning your abililty and think you are either jealous or withdrawn to question mine! But rest assured all the while i KNOW what i am doing and also KNOW i will always be ahead of you in this trade!!  At some point a younger kid is gonna come along and know more than me, but at least i will have the decency to admire his point and skills and to not just cry him down and try to persecute him like a bitter old MAN!

Regards

Damian. x

[calmore]

Do they have carpet fitters in Australia? What with it being hot and full of kangaroos I wouldn't have thought there was much demand.

[Damian]

Hiya calmore, yeah they have loads of work there. I went in 2002 and am a permanant resident now. mind have been busy having kiddies here so havent been back as yet!  :

[Liahona]

For the record in terms of the clients I have and the carpet fitters/companies I deal with.... If you dont put turns on quality flooring as previously mentioned you would be out of a job and black listed so to speak amongst those who do. Designers and the like would avoid those who dont turn like the plague. Just an observation. Best, Dave. P.S. Damien, there is no need to comment on this post as it is just an observation, however I am sure you will......

[Damian]

Have nothing against turning and tacking stairs-rather enjoy it and my Father used to say i would love  upholstery! My main point is it is rare nowadays with modern carpets and fibres-they are usually bolstered into gripper which i find neater. As do custys. As long as im paid i dont mind! but there is no point turning and tacking a modern bcf wilton as it wont see thirty years out. Modern twists even less (poly's etc) Most people renew every three to five years and change decor. I am not against old techniques and believe me i am certainly capable as i have done enough over years! Just now custys spend less and more often-in my case(i also supply carpets aswell)

Regards

Damian.

[Steven Edwards]

For the record in terms of the clients I have and the carpet fitters/companies I deal with.... If you dont put turns on quality flooring as previously mentioned you would be out of a job and black listed so to speak amongst those who do. Designers and the like would avoid those who dont turn like the plague. Just an observation. Best, Dave. P.S. Damien, there is no need to comment on this post as it is just an observation, however I am sure you will......

Thank you my point to the t.

All our apprentices are trained this way.

There are members like Damien who just need to learn the basics. Why post argumentative comments all the time. Why not just except it as constructive criticism.

He has alot to learn.

Ps This is not an old technique its standard industry practise. Go back and the learn the basics. parents are not always the right people to teach their kids.

PPS We are talking about expensive Axminsters and Wiltons only

[Steven Edwards]

Have nothing against turning and tacking stairs-rather enjoy it and my Father used to say i would love  upholstery! My main point is it is rare nowadays with modern carpets and fibres-they are usually bolstered into gripper which i find neater. As do custys. As long as im paid i dont mind! but there is no point turning and tacking a modern bcf wilton as it wont see thirty years out. Modern twists even less (poly's etc) Most people renew every three to five years and change decor. I am not against old techniques and believe me i am certainly capable as i have done enough over years! Just now custys spend less and more often-in my case(i also supply carpets aswell)

Regards

Damian.

You need to seriously get yourself booked in on a carpet fitters course away from your father. Im not saying that in a nasty way either.

If a customer pays out £5k on a HSL axminster and finds in 6 years when she wants the stairs moved that she cant cos you fitted it incorrectly she wouldn't be too pleased.

Her 30 year investment has now been halfed! Think about it!