[geoffreyspecht]

i have been cleaning windows for 29 years now using ladders and even if there is a ban on cleaning windows with ladders i will still use ladders

[Philip Hanson]

Im sure you wont be the only one.  We will have wait and see how well it is enforced.

-Philip

[geoffreyspecht]

its about freedom of choice phil myfarther fought in the war to protect my freedoom so im not going to let a non democratic eu parliment tell me what i can and cn not do

[matt]

Im sure you wont be the only one.  We will have wait and see how well it is enforced.

-Philip

this is a good point, the 1st few weeks you might hear about some1 being warned by HSe (warned i said, as they will say "oh i didnt know", then it will all be forgotten about

Straight banana's anyone ?? ?? ??

[tam]

Philip, what would it cost for you build a system. I would be interested in buying one.

[simonb]

You can't afford all this if you are just starting.
Get your ladders out and get stuck in.
You know what anything to do with Europe is like - something might happen in a few years. Even if it does who is going to enforce it?
They can't even stop illegal immigrants because they have no staff.
There's not enough Police to catch burglars.
So you can be safe with your ladder for years.
Even if you did get 'caught' up a ladder you would only get a warning. So you could then think about alternatives

[replacement]

Some very wise words from SimionB there. Totally agree this is getting blow out of all poprtions. There will not be an total ban on ladders, your just have to use them properly thats all. So stop worrying about it i bet 90% of you anit even read the paper on it.

Justin

[Spoonbill1970]

Thanks Wavie Davie,

Had a good read thru the BB the other night-seems to be the way forward right enough.
Chap round our way has spent £5K on van mounted system a year ago. Seems a bit steep. I know one of his domestic customers, and he is not a happy bunny - gravel all over path, plants uprooted, water squirted in the wee Slotvents at the top of the window.
Trolley looks like a much more workable answer.

Have you got one from Broxburn?  Do you think they are interested in giving Demos?

Thanks for pointers to website.

JSP

[Londoner]

The point is , whether you  like it or not,(and whether you agree with it or not ) its all about safety. Your safety as it happens.
Now you can talk about freedom of choice but the simple fact is that ladders are dangerous. Anyone who uses a ladder every day can be in no real doubt.
If this law saves any of you from death or serious injury
then it has my vote. Even if you don't agree.
Its only a job after all.
Whats the problem?

[stevekennedy]

You know what anything to do with Europe is like - something might happen in a few years. Even if it does who is going to enforce it?
They can't even stop illegal immigrants because they have no staff.
There's not enough Police to catch burglars.
So you can be safe with your ladder for years.
Even if you did get 'caught' up a ladder you would only get a warning. So you could then think about alternatives

The lawyers will enforce it through litigation. The threat of compensation claims will put most employers and householders off of ladders. ALso, due to this compensation culture, insurance might become even more of a problem. If your ladder falls on someone else, then you will have to pay compensation of thousands of pounds. If it kills them, you will also go to jail  

The choice we all have is whether we are willing to take that risk. Some customers are nieve and unaware of the risks. But, as more cleaners get pole systems, you can bet that the public will become more informed on such matters!

[WavieDavie]

Hi JSP

Have you got one from Broxburn?
I certainly do, and very happy with it too.

Do you think they are interested in giving Demos?
I had a demo from Peter at one of his customers' premises, but I think he's more into the production and sales of his systems now and isn't "hands-on" any longer.

Give him a call, and tell him to send on my commission

I don't use it on all that many jobs, I consider it another string to my bow at present, but we'll see what happens with the local council enforcing regulations in the future.

All the best for whatever you decide on.

[bluesteve]

The point is , whether you  like it or not,(and whether you agree with it or not ) its all about safety. Your safety as it happens.
Now you can talk about freedom of choice but the simple fact is that ladders are dangerous. Anyone who uses a ladder every day can be in no real doubt.
If this law saves any of you from death or serious injury
then it has my vote. Even if you don't agree.
Its only a job after all.
Whats the problem?

[bluesteve]

The point is , whether you  like it or not,(and whether you agree with it or not ) its all about safety. Your safety as it happens.
Now you can talk about freedom of choice but the simple fact is that ladders are dangerous. Anyone who uses a ladder every day can be in no real doubt.
If this law saves any of you from death or serious injury
then it has my vote. Even if you don't agree.
Its only a job after all.
Whats the problem?

the point is, is the undemocratic EU going to ban everything that is dangerous ie playing rugby ,driving cars, scuba driving, working with electric, working near water etc etc i can go on.
if i want to use ladders on someones private property and they are happy to let me , who is going to stop me and if they try surely thats a breach of our human rights.

anyway, i havent read any background info on this,so what is the actually truth ,is it all ladders or only at certain heights when the "law" applies

[Philip Hanson]

anyway, i havent read any background info on this,so what is the actually truth ,is it all ladders or only at certain heights when the "law" applies

As this seems to be a controversial issue, my best advice is that you read the proposals and decide for yourself on the best course of action.

They are here:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd192.pdf

If you're still none the wiser, contact your local HSE office, and they will be able to help.

You know what anything to do with Europe is like - something might happen in a few years.

Page 30 of the HSC document (linked to above) sets out the timetable for the UK's adoption of this directive:

Made : 2004
Laid Before Parliament : 2004
Coming into force : 2004

Again, my advice to everyone is to READ THE DOCUMENT.

is the undemocratic EU going to ban everything that is dangerous

Just to set the record straight, The members of the European Parliment (or MEPs as they are known) are democratically elected.  

Its interesting that many people moan about EU laws, but In this country less than 20% of the population bothered to vote for a candidate at all!

-Philip

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

Hi all,

I've read with interest all the posts on this subject and took a look at the draft proposals.

When I first started I went out with a couple of cloths a bucket of water and a ladder a customer lent to me to start me of.  No problems at all.

A couple of years ago I was employing and paying £350 per yaer for Employers liability and Public liability was only £45 Now Insurance is treble the price and Employers is like rocking horse poo.

When these regulations are in force the insurance companies won't insure you unless you have complied to the letter.  Therefor you will be Ok so long as you don't have an accident or any one else involved doesn't try to sue you.

The regulations say that where ever an alternative to ladders is available it must be used.  Well there is: WFP.  Well wether we nlike it or not some smart arsed lawyer is going to prove we should have used an alterative and the Insurance will drop you like a deadly spider.

Personaly I have gone through more hastle in the past year than any other time in16 years of window cleaning.  Thanks to your advise I managed to find reasonable EL insurance.  Now here I go again with the dilemer WFP or not?

I agree with you Philip.  We have got to take alternatives to our old faithfull friend the ladder seriously and bite the bullet if we are going to survive in this game.  For the first time in this trade I am faced with having to make a seriuose financial commitment.  But only the seriouse professionals are going to survive and that will be better in the long run as we will be treated with respect and be able to damand a decent payment for our profession.  It will get rid of the "cowboys"!

[Spoonbill1970]

Yes,
I agree.  Started in 1987, when an England win in the Carribean was as far off as WFP's, and the "falling off ladder" scenario has never been far from my mind since then.

Safety is the issue. We will have to bite the bullet. I personally hope the local authority enforces the law in a way that they have failed to do so with licenses up here. Cowboys are everywhere, keeping prices down.
I don't fancy having to change lang established work practices, but at the end of the day (sorry for the cliche)   the cost of a wfp will be about the same as a years insurance (at FED rates). Not bad if you ask me. I'm getting older and the law of averages states that SOMETIME in the next 30 years, I'm going to take a fall.

Thanks Wavie Davie, will give Broxburn Cleaning equipment a call and mention Dalzell Cleaning! - You never know!

JSP

[geoffreyspecht]

you have still got to fight for your freedom its about human rights otherwise we will end up in a police state if it carries on like this  

[tam]

I have read all the posts and have come to the conclusion that you are all one man bands, or am I reading this all wrong, will some of you guys let me know. I have 4 employees working for me, and no, I am not boasting, 2 guys to a van. and myself with a van, X3 w/fed systems and all the accessories = a hell of a lot of money in my book. How do you pass that on to the customer. Yesterday, my guys went out and done 130 houses of various sizes all with ladders, and to lug a w/fed pole system around a housing scheme dose not compute, as some of you will know what I am talking about. Any answers?  

[seanc]

tam
yes i am a one man band as i am sure everyone has been at some time start at the bottom of the ladder so to spreak (lol)  

if ladders do get banned then yes the bigger firms or people with a lot of start up money will be the only people that could work in the trade

althoue i do think wfp are the way forward and have considerd one but as i am just starting it is well out of my range

good luck to all the one man bands and well done to all of you that have been in the past and arnt any more

[geoffreyspecht]

my views on water fed poles they are overpriced and do a crap job on cleaning windows so im going to carry on using ladders when comes to eu parlimemt voting for one euro mp dosent make it a democratic parliment