[Splash and dash]

Anyone heard of any other window cleaner deaths than this Teeside one from a shifting tank?  Which we know was in an erratically driven old van with an insecure full 1000L IBC tank?

In twenty plus years of wfp?

If so what were the circumstances?

There have been several the previous one was a young person in there twenties believe it was Norfolk direction from memory ?

[AuRavelling79]

Anyone heard of any other window cleaner deaths than this Teeside one from a shifting tank?  Which we know was in an erratically driven old van with an insecure full 1000L IBC tank?

In twenty plus years of wfp?

If so what were the circumstances?

There have been several the previous one was a young person in there twenties believe it was Norfolk direction from memory ?

Circumstances? Kind of tank? How secured?

[Splash and dash]

Anyone heard of any other window cleaner deaths than this Teeside one from a shifting tank?  Which we know was in an erratically driven old van with an insecure full 1000L IBC tank?

In twenty plus years of wfp?

If so what were the circumstances?

There have been several the previous one was a young person in there twenties believe it was Norfolk direction from memory ?

Circumstances? Kind of tank? How secured?

Google it there was loads of publicity about it , was a ratchet strapped in  tank , no bulk head either a head on or rear end shunt very low speed impact he was crushed on the steering wheel small tank I think 350 ltr ? Guessing it might be just before Covid ? But time flies so could be a bit longer

[AuRavelling79]

Anyone heard of any other window cleaner deaths than this Teeside one from a shifting tank?  Which we know was in an erratically driven old van with an insecure full 1000L IBC tank?

In twenty plus years of wfp?

If so what were the circumstances?

There have been several the previous one was a young person in there twenties believe it was Norfolk direction from memory ?

Circumstances? Kind of tank? How secured?

Google it there was loads of publicity about it , was a ratchet strapped in  tank , no bulk head either a head on or rear end shunt very low speed impact he was crushed on the steering wheel small tank I think 350 ltr ? Guessing it might be just before Covid ? But time flies so could be a bit longer

No bulkhead? Ratchet straps rating? Strapped to what? How low a speed?

You seem  to have some details. Be nice to have a reference.

[Splash and dash]

Anyone heard of any other window cleaner deaths than this Teeside one from a shifting tank?  Which we know was in an erratically driven old van with an insecure full 1000L IBC tank?

In twenty plus years of wfp?

If so what were the circumstances?

There have been several the previous one was a young person in there twenties believe it was Norfolk direction from memory ?

Circumstances? Kind of tank? How secured?

Google it there was loads of publicity about it , was a ratchet strapped in  tank , no bulk head either a head on or rear end shunt very low speed impact he was crushed on the steering wheel small tank I think 350 ltr ? Guessing it might be just before Covid ? But time flies so could be a bit longer

No bulkhead? Ratchet straps rating? Strapped to what? How low a speed?

You seem  to have some details. Be nice to have a reference.

Can’t remember all the details but thought it was mentioned on here at the time , don’t recall the rating of the straps as being mentioned, but no bulkhead, was a small Citroen belingo type of van  think it was Norfolk or Lincolnshire way ?  Someone must remember it it made national news at the time even down here , think it was the initial accident that was reported on rather than a  coroner's  inquest.

[Mattymarske]

[Mattymarske]

It says it was a 4 vehicle accident. He was in a VW Caddy and had to take evasive action.

[Mattymarske]

13 years later and we're still discussing. Auravelling still asking the pertinent questions 👌

[AuRavelling79]

I forgot that exchange.

Brilliant posts Mattymarske.

[Ian Sheppard]

Back in 2023, I started a post regarding the death of Andrew Langstaff who was working for Teesside Window Cleaning.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=223220.0

A few days ago, an inquest into Andrew's death was held in a Middlesbrough court over 2 days.

Here is our local newspaper's report of the proceedings.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/andrew-langstaff-inquest-billingham-crash-30801868

The newspaper reports that Huran Hussain testified that strapping an IBC tank into the back of a van was common practice. It isn't. He testified that he believed the straps were safe and was not aware of any other methods used to secure the cylinders at the time. He said: "I wish at the time I knew how dangerous they could be." Absolute lies. Many on this and the other forum warned him about this unsafe practice numerous times, but he chose to ignore the advice. Anyone who commented against what he was doing was seen by him as an idiot.

I'm saddened that this situation has led to a window cleaner's death, but glad that this ratchet strapping an IBC tank down has been shown to be an 'inappropriate' way of securing the tank by the crash investigators.

I spoke to one of his ex-employees a few months ago. He has a Transit van with an IBC tank ratchet strapped in the back. I pointed out how dangerous this was. He said this setup was just temporary. I saw his van a couple of days ago and he still has the IBC tank strapped in. I honestly hope the outcome of this inquest makes him and any others sit up and rectify this.

Interestingly, the investigators also stated that the van was being driven erratically just before the crash. There was no indication that there was drink involved, but the comment made was that Google maps was on his phone and that a photo had been accessed during the journey. Was Andrew distracted by his phone?

Thanks for highlighting important topic. It is very sad that someone has lost their life and the family lost a Father, Son and brother.
 

[CleanClear]

A van is totally different to an HGV  and carrying liquids comes under a different category to solid objects  thatcham who do the crash testing state tanks should not be against bulkheads

You are saying a lot of stuff that makes no sense at all, and i don't know where to start.... but i'll have a go....
[1] There is no 'categories' , i belive you made that up.
[2] If you can show me anywhere that Thatcham state a 'tank' or any load for that matter should NOT be against a bulkhead then i'll eat my hat.
[3] Thatcham is a testing facility, NOT an authority on anything.
[4]  Have you an idea what it costs to put your idea through to fruition and get it tested by Thatcham ?


And lastly but not least.... you appear to have no grasp of physics. I'll explain......(Bulkhead and tank scenario)......

If i was to open up the palm of my hand to you in a high five scenario and allowed you to punch it, there is a great chance you'll really hurt my hand, maybe smash my wrist etc... It won't be a pleasant experience for me, for sure.

If i was to replicate that, but you had to start with your clenched fist resting in my palm nothing would really happen, other than you may push me over if i held up.

And thats the difference regards a load being against a bulkhead.

 You also previously suggested that an IBC (of say about 800 litres) that was 90 to 95% full may cause someone to wobble all around the road. This is pure nonsense. Its a real small space with a real small amount of liquid sloshing about.

  Infact, if you had a half full diesel tank in your van that could potentially topple you over... well according to your logic.

[Splash and dash]

A van is totally different to an HGV  and carrying liquids comes under a different category to solid objects  thatcham who do the crash testing state tanks should not be against bulkheads

You are saying a lot of stuff that makes no sense at all, and i don't know where to start.... but i'll have a go....
[1] There is no 'categories' , i belive you made that up.
[2] If you can show me anywhere that Thatcham state a 'tank' or any load for that matter should NOT be against a bulkhead then i'll eat my hat.
[3] Thatcham is a testing facility, NOT an authority on anything.
[4]  Have you an idea what it costs to put your idea through to fruition and get it tested by Thatcham ?


And lastly but not least.... you appear to have no grasp of physics. I'll explain......(Bulkhead and tank scenario)......

If i was to open up the palm of my hand to you in a high five scenario and allowed you to punch it, there is a great chance you'll really hurt my hand, maybe smash my wrist etc... It won't be a pleasant experience for me, for sure.

If i was to replicate that, but you had to start with your clenched fist resting in my palm nothing would really happen, other than you may push me over if i held up.

And thats the difference regards a load being against a bulkhead.

 You also previously suggested that an IBC (of say about 800 litres) that was 90 to 95% full may cause someone to wobble all around the road. This is pure nonsense. Its a real small space with a real small amount of liquid sloshing about.

  Infact, if you had a half full diesel tank in your van that could potentially topple you over... well according to your logic.

1 . The carriage of goods act has different categories of loads .

2. Thatcham  stated that a liquid load should not be against a bulk head as it will transfer the inertia through it causing crush injury’s to the occupants , why do you think all type approved crash tested systems have a gap between tank and bulkhead .

3. Yes they are an I dependant testing agency recognised by insurance companies for many different test and they aren’t affiliated with any company so have no vested interest in one firm over another

4. Yes I do it costs tens of thousands of pounds or it did when two of the main crash tested systems had it done Craig mawlam did tell me how much it cost years ago but can’t remember the exact figure .


I think you are missing the whole point of having a gap between the tank and bulkhead the frame around the tank is designed to bend in an impact the tank ruptures and if a lid is fitted the water goes up to the roof of the van taking the inertia up not forward into the bulkhead and then the cab . Why do you think all fire engines have safety relief valves fitted into the top of there water tanks ? It’s to stop surge in the event of an accident and the tank and contents coming into the crew cab area .
An un baffled tank even when 95% full will still will cause surge and can cause a vehicle to swerve as can road camber , have you ever driven anything with an un baffled tank like a water carrier or milk tanker ? If you have you would know this it a fact .

[CleanClear]

1 . The carriage of goods act has different categories of loads .

Show me.

[CleanClear]

2. Thatcham  stated that a liquid load should not be against a bulk head as it will transfer the inertia through it causing crush injury’s to the occupants , why do you think all type approved crash tested systems have a gap between tank and bulkhead .

Show me.

[CleanClear]

3. Yes they are an I dependant testing agency recognised by insurance companies for many different test and they aren’t affiliated with any company so have no vested interest in one firm over another

So show me where 'Thatcham say....' as opposed to the producing results of their paid for tests ?

[CleanClear]

4. Yes I do it costs tens of thousands of pounds or it did when two of the main crash tested systems had it done Craig mawlam did tell me how much it cost years ago but can’t remember the exact figure .


I think you are missing the whole point of having a gap between the tank and bulkhead the frame around the tank is designed to bend in an impact the tank ruptures and if a lid is fitted the water goes up to the roof of the van taking the inertia up not forward into the bulkhead and then the cab . Why do you think all fire engines have safety relief valves fitted into the top of there water tanks ? It’s to stop surge in the event of an accident and the tank and contents coming into the crew cab area .
An un baffled tank even when 95% full will still will cause surge and can cause a vehicle to swerve as can road camber , have you ever driven anything with an un baffled tank like a water carrier or milk tanker ? If you have you would know this it a fact .

You aint gonna believe this mate, but its true. I hold a CE licence  since the 90's. In a previous life i have driven / drove ? 

Milk tankers, Mollases tankers, sugar tankers and food oil tankers. Actually the food oil tankers was with Abbey Tanks and we did do Orange juice and Apple juice too. Mostly drove artics, but i did do a lot of 8 wheeler work on molasses with multi compartments for smaller niche deliveries of diffent (molasses) products to smaller farms as opposed to mills etc...

 So yes i know about this stuff first hand, and i'm not trying to be rude, but i know its gonna come across like that ... but anyway...... i wasn't sat in the back of a fire engine wondering how it all works. I've driven the things, and everything in between thats relevant to our job. Small vans , 350 litrers.. tranny vans IBC in back etc.......

[Splash and dash]

1 . The carriage of goods act has different categories of loads .

Show me.

Look it up for  yourself Ime not wet nursing you and ime not interested in  getting in to a long argument I stand by what I have said

[CleanClear]

1 . The carriage of goods act has different categories of loads .

Show me.

Look it up for  yourself Ime not wet nursing you and ime not interested in  getting in to a long argument I stand by what I have said

I understand, ones can make their own mind up based upon the truth if they should search it out and try to figure out who to believe 

[Splash and dash]

4. Yes I do it costs tens of thousands of pounds or it did when two of the main crash tested systems had it done Craig mawlam did tell me how much it cost years ago but can’t remember the exact figure .


I think you are missing the whole point of having a gap between the tank and bulkhead the frame around the tank is designed to bend in an impact the tank ruptures and if a lid is fitted the water goes up to the roof of the van taking the inertia up not forward into the bulkhead and then the cab . Why do you think all fire engines have safety relief valves fitted into the top of there water tanks ? It’s to stop surge in the event of an accident and the tank and contents coming into the crew cab area .
An un baffled tank even when 95% full will still will cause surge and can cause a vehicle to swerve as can road camber , have you ever driven anything with an un baffled tank like a water carrier or milk tanker ? If you have you would know this it a fact .

You aint gonna believe this mate, but its true. I hold a CE licence  since the 90's. In a previous life i have driven / drove ? 

Milk tankers, Mollases tankers, sugar tankers and food oil tankers. Actually the food oil tankers was with Abbey Tanks and we did do Orange juice and Apple juice too. Mostly drove artics, but i did do a lot of 8 wheeler work on molasses with multi compartments for smaller niche deliveries of diffent (molasses) products to smaller farms as opposed to mills etc...

 So yes i know about this stuff first hand, and i'm not trying to be rude, but i know its gonna come across like that ... but anyway...... i wasn't sat in the back of a fire engine wondering how it all works. I've driven the things, and everything in between thats relevant to our job. Small vans , 350 litrers.. tranny vans IBC in back etc.......

So as I said you will understand how a liquid load in an un baffled tank can cause surge and cause a vehicle to become unstable and drift  across a road

[֍Winp®oClean֍]

1 . The carriage of goods act has different categories of loads .

Show me.

Look it up for  yourself Ime not wet nursing you and ime not interested in  getting in to a long argument I stand by what I have said

Oh, come on splash. You can't get this deep and not back it up?🤔