[AuRavelling79]

As many of you are aware there has been a thread which had a discussion about the insurability or otherwise of vans used for window cleaning with water tanks declared as a modification.

Firstly I would like to say that anyone who goes round with a water tank that is not properly secured in a van needs their head examined. At the other end of the scale there are those who will only have a crash-tested system and believe that it will not be possible to get insurance anymore if they are not, which is of course their personal choice.

Secondly I have had a discussion with my son in law Dan the Man about his experience insuring his 500L DiY tank at Alexander Swan which he did on 11th October 2024. He was already a customer and they said that they were no longer insuring tanks above 500L that weren't crash tested. However after his describing how his tank was installed (frame bolted through the floor) they continued his insurance at no extra premium.

Thirdly I have this morning on the basis of finding out about insurance for a possible van purchase and insuring same had discussions with both Howden/A-Plan and Alexander Swan. In the next post I will describe those discussions as I recall them.

I posed the possibility of buying a new van and getting it insured from November the first and I suggested a 2013 Fiat Scudo 2.0JTD as an example.


Stay posted. 

[The Jester of Wibbly]

I do wonder if we're over thinking this.

We are carrying cargo.   A pallet of sugar or bricks would not need to be crash tested, but would certainly need to be strapped in properly.    Badly secured cargo is a motoring offence.

[֍Winp®oClean֍]

I do wonder if we're over thinking this.

We are carrying cargo.   A pallet of sugar or bricks would not need to be crash tested, but would certainly need to be strapped in properly.    Badly secured cargo is a motoring offence.

It was never an issue until window cleaners started hounding insurance providers/brokers to charge them more! They then suffer from buyer justification syndrome!

[AuRavelling79]

My van that I asked for a quotation for was for a 2013 Fiat Scudo 2.0JTD with 80,000 miles. I explained it that I had heard there were issues with DiY systems and insurance.

Alexander Swan

They informed me that they were no longer insuring vans with non-crash tested professionally fitted systems above 500Litres. (He mentioned Ionics of course  but also Purefreedom, Grippatank and WCW - I didn't ask whether those firms tanks were all crash tested) They also wanted me to describe how the system would be installed. (I replied with a frame bolted through the floor with plates underneath and 5 tonne lorry loading straps to the frame with the leading edge of the tank against the factory fitted bulkhead)

The gent I was talking to referred to one of the directors who he reported wanted to know if the tank was baffled. I replied it would be a 500L tank Wyedale ( https://www.onlinetankstore.co.uk/product/500-litre-flat-baffled-water-tank/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyL24BhCtARIsALo0fSDK2l57iEKvOrOY3K4rkzOSFT1Po1YxgJHli29H_aYb29R0e1FXBMYaAgdgEALw_wcB ) which they describe as Baffled, through which 'hole' the 5 tonne straps would be wound and fastened to the frame.
The chap said that was ok and gave me a quotation. He reiterated that 500L was the maximum tank size.

HOWDEN'S/A-Plan

No problems getting a quote up to 1000litres if it was 'properly secured'. I asked what that meant and was told that I should describe how it was secured which I did. They did say that more of their insurers preferred 500L or 650 as a maximum and that the bigger the tank the more limited the choice of insurer is.


I asked A Plan and AS if they had heard of claims from tanks being inadequately secured and they both said they had heard of one up in the north east but that their company had not brokered the insurance.

AS said they were trying to weed out people putting something like 1000L IBC's in the back of their vans.

A sidenote. Dan the Man was involved in a no fault claim last year which meant he had an Ionics van supplied while he was off the road. He wasn't impressed. He said the system leaked and he had to provide a battery - for which he was reimbursed - for some reason to 'make it work'.

I asked how it was secured and he said it was in a cage which was bolted through the floor but he didn't look underneath. Strangely to my way of thinking the tank wasn't against the bulkhead. (Maybe the strongest points of the floor meant the tank frame couldn't be put against the bulkhead - I don't know?)

[Ggh]

How much weight is on the front axle if you fix it against the bulkhead?

[Ggh]

What rated straps do I need, to secure my pony in the horse van?

[Arnold Palmer]

What rated straps do I need, to secure my pony in the horse van?

Only crash tested ionics frames I'm afraid.

[AuRavelling79]

How much weight is on the front axle if you fix it against the bulkhead?

https://www.vanguide.co.uk/guides/van-overloading/#:~:text=Most%20people%20believe,of%20a%20judge!

[Ggh]

What rated straps do I need, to secure my pony in the horse van?

Only crash tested ionics frames I'm afraid.

Trip to Swindon it is then!!!

[Ggh]

How much weight is on the front axle if you fix it against the bulkhead?

https://www.vanguide.co.uk/guides/van-overloading/#:~:text=Most%20people%20believe,of%20a%20judge!

Not up against the bulkhead then! Guess it depends on wheelbase..

That’s why manufacturers install load hooks or tie downs in the load area because they recognise distributing the payload around the van correctly is the key to not overloading your certain axles, so use them as they may save you a big fine and prosecution someday.

[Stoots]

Ive never told an insurance company i carry a tank and never plan to. Its a van designed to carry a load, my tank is as secure as i can make it. Not worth worrying about, personally i only ever potter about town at max  40 mph. Only time i go on the motorway would be at a weekend with an empty tank....

[AuRavelling79]

How much weight is on the front axle if you fix it against the bulkhead?

https://www.vanguide.co.uk/guides/van-overloading/#:~:text=Most%20people%20believe,of%20a%20judge!

Not up against the bulkhead then! Guess it depends on wheelbase..

That’s why manufacturers install load hooks or tie downs in the load area because they recognise distributing the payload around the van correctly is the key to not overloading your certain axles, so use them as they may save you a big fine and prosecution someday.

Depends on the van, which model length and it's payload too. Also is your tank flat or upright. And do you have two men on board? If your van is RWD then it will have less weight at the front axle than FWD.

If your payload is say 1000 and your tank 500 flat you might have less to worry about then if your payload is 900 and your tank 400 upright.

[AuRavelling79]

Ive never told an insurance company i carry a tank and never plan to. Its a van designed to carry a load, my tank is as secure as i can make it. Not worth worrying about, personally i only ever potter about town at max  40 mph. Only time i go on the motorway would be at a weekend with an empty tank....

What do you say if the insurer/broker asks you if your van has been modified in any way? Or if you carry a tank?

[Ggh]

How much weight is on the front axle if you fix it against the bulkhead?

https://www.vanguide.co.uk/guides/van-overloading/#:~:text=Most%20people%20believe,of%20a%20judge!

Not up against the bulkhead then! Guess it depends on wheelbase..

That’s why manufacturers install load hooks or tie downs in the load area because they recognise distributing the payload around the van correctly is the key to not overloading your certain axles, so use them as they may save you a big fine and prosecution someday.

Depends on the van, which model length and it's payload too. Also is your tank flat or upright. And do you have two men on board? If your van is RWD then it will have less weight at the front axle than RWD.

If your payload is say 1000 and your tank 500 flat you might have less to worry about then if your payload is 900 and your tank 400 upright.

Yes, you’re correct. A lot to consider. SWB probably up against the bulkhead and then moving further back with vehicle length.
I’ve never tried an upright tank, surely unless it’s against the bulkhead, it’s less stable? Get in the way of the scaff tower too.

[The Jester of Wibbly]

My tank is bolted in, so it's definitely a modification.  If it's strapped in, it's cargo, which isn't a modification unless all cargo has to be declared.

That's probably why insurance companies are only interested in professional fitted tanks.

My Grippa tank (crash tested) is center gravity and not up against Bulk head.

[AuRavelling79]

My tank is bolted in, so it's definitely a modification.  If it's strapped in, it's cargo, which isn't a modification unless all cargo has to be declared.

That's probably why insurance companies are only interested in professional fitted tanks.

My Grippa tank (crash tested) is center gravity and not up against Bulk head.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? 

I've just posted that two popular WC van insurer brokers are able to find insurers who are happy insuring DiY water tanks.

 

[The Jester of Wibbly]

My tank is bolted in, so it's definitely a modification.  If it's strapped in, it's cargo, which isn't a modification unless all cargo has to be declared.

That's probably why insurance companies are only interested in professional fitted tanks.

My Grippa tank (crash tested) is center gravity and not up against Bulk head.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? 

I've just posted that two popular WC van insurer brokers are able to find insurers who are happy insuring DiY water tanks.

 

It's simply not a modification if using straps like any other heavy cargo,  so any van insurance should be fine.   I feel we are being taking for mugs within the insurance trade.    Probably because we insist it's written into the documents.

Mine is bolted in, so definitely a modification for me anyhow.

[֍Winp®oClean֍]

In over 20 years I've never been asked, even once if I carry a water tank!

[Ggh]

In over 20 years I've never been asked, even once if I carry a water tank!

I was asked if the tanks are permanently fixed. They are not.

[Splash and dash]

In over 20 years I've never been asked, even once if I carry a water tank!

It’s your responsibility to declare it not for them to ask , have a look in the small print of your policy .