[matthewprice]

Hi my leisure battery is on its way out . Considering a lithium battery . Purely for the weight advantage . Any one got any experience or advice thank you

[Pete Thompson]

Why would you need to reduce the weight in your van?

Reducing the weight by approximately 20 kg will have no significant impact on your fuel consumption. But lithium ion batteries are several times more expensive than lead acid, and not as straightforward to charge (and so you’d probably need a special charging system)

I thought about it a while ago, and decided it just wasn’t worth the extra cost for no real benefit.

[EandM]

A quick look around suggests about £500 for a 100 ah or £250 for a 50 ah.

Very good batteries with around 4,000 cycles available so ultimately fairly cheap if ordered direct from China but allow another£50 for a dedicated charger.

But it's a lot of initial outlay when an AGM is around 20% of the price.

[matthewprice]

I have got a small kangoo van . And it would be to minimise the weight . Extra initial outlay would eventually pay for its self . Charging is a little bit of an unknown for me .

[Ched]

Lithium batteries don't like the cold either. Effectively in cold temps (below about 5 Deg C) they won't give out anywhere near their rated capacity.

[Splash & dash]

Lithium batteries don't like the cold either. Effectively in cold temps (below about 5 Deg C) they won't give out anywhere near their rated capacity.

Nor can they be charged either

[EandM]

Nor can they be charged either
[/quote]

Sorry, I don't understand. What can't be charged?

[Splash & dash]

Nor can they be charged either

Sorry, I don't understand. What can't be charged?
[/quote]


Lithium batteries cannot be charged if they are below a certain temperature cannot remember the exact temperature but it’s around 5 degrees?.. friend of mine is a marine electrician and they have to fit heaters around the batteries to keep the  the temperature up so they will charge and supply power . The Americans use them a lot in there camper vans and they have to fit them in insulated boxes or fit  heaters to keep them warm .

[Spruce]

Sterling supply a 100 amp lithium battery with added heating so a cold battery will accept a small charge.
That will cost you a further £250.
https://sterling-power.com/products/heated-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-12v-leisure-battery-5-year-warranty

And as others have stated, you need a battery charger designed for charging lithium batteries. A standard car battery charger or smart battery charger isn't sufficient.

I have a lithium battery in my DeWalt drilling machine. The charger will not charge a battery that is below 0 degrees C. It needs to be warmed up before the charger will activate.

If you really want to learn about Lithium batteries, a narrow boater by the name of Jono (Journey with Jono) did a few tutorial videos when he fitted his boat out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIVBpSs2ma0&list=PL3zptmU3iQDAOp3xKInXA-7tFFyGuCylP

Narrow boaters store their battery bank in the engine compartment outside the living area. He had to install his inside his boat to keep them warm.

[AuRavelling79]

I have got a small kangoo van . And it would be to minimise the weight . Extra initial outlay would eventually pay for its self . Charging is a little bit of an unknown for me .

How do you arrive at the conclusion that the weight saving would have an appreciable benefit?

[Splash & dash]

I have got a small kangoo van . And it would be to minimise the weight . Extra initial outlay would eventually pay for its self . Charging is a little bit of an unknown for me .

How do you arrive at the conclusion that the weight saving would have an appreciable benefit?

20 kg is neither here or there when it comes to van payloads , he’s better off with AGM batteries

[Spruce]

I have got a small kangoo van . And it would be to minimise the weight . Extra initial outlay would eventually pay for its self . Charging is a little bit of an unknown for me .

How do you arrive at the conclusion that the weight saving would have an appreciable benefit?

20 kg is neither hear or there when it comes to van payloads , he’s better off with AGM batteries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJSNaWPXbSk

This video is 4 years old. All the details may not be that relevant any longer as technologies develop, but the basic principle of what he says still holds true.
I also noted that in his research, he states that there wasn't much of a difference between the weights of lead acid and AGM batteries.

Again, if anyone decides AGM is the way to go, then they need a dedicated battery charger that will accommodate AGM charging profiles. My Numax smart charger isn't suitable to fully recharge an AGM battery. Its designed for lead acid battery recharging only.

[EandM]

I have got a small kangoo van . And it would be to minimise the weight . Extra initial outlay would eventually pay for its self . Charging is a little bit of an unknown for me .

How do you arrive at the conclusion that the weight saving would have an appreciable benefit?

20 kg is neither hear or there when it comes to van payloads , he’s better off with AGM batteries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJSNaWPXbSk

This video is 4 years old. All the details may not be that relevant any longer as technologies develop, but the basic principle of what he says still holds true.
I also noted that in his research, he states that there wasn't much of a difference between the weights of lead acid and AGM batteries.

Again, if anyone decides AGM is the way to go, then they need a dedicated battery charger that will accommodate AGM charging profiles. My Numax smart charger isn't suitable to fully recharge an AGM battery. Its designed for lead acid battery recharging only.

I use fairly low capacity AGM's, typically around 36 ah and find them to be extremely good.
My dad, who was a TV engineer for a very long time, made me an appropriate power supply and all has been working well for a number of years.

[JandS]

There having fun in the States and Canada at the moment with charging electric cars due to the extreme weather.

[Spruce]

This is another consideration if deciding to use Lithium batteries. I've seen this video before, but couldn't find it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug

[a900]

Feel like there is a lot of scare mongering in this thread. I’ve been using lithium for the last 4 years or so. DIY packs for me as it’s been a bit of hobby.

Yes lithium isn’t designed to be charged below 0C. But can discharge lower than that. It’s very rare for your battery pack to get that cold inside a case. As been mentioned you can buy packs that have have thermal heating pads to keep the pack over 0C which isn’t much.

I would recommend someone like fogstar https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/lithium-leisure-battery

I use the same cells as in their batteries for home storage.

I would also recommend a dc-dc charger. Like Victron Orion tr 12/12-30amp.  It will charge the battery and is like the modern version of a split charge relay. Newer vehicles do not like older style split charge so this is the modern going forward way anyway.  Mine is Bluetooth so can read battery state. So on.

So now the scare is yes it does cost more than a lead acid battery. But has many many more cycles 4000-6000 full depth cycles. So cheaper in the long run. You should get years out of it. 

Lighter to me is just a win side effect in a window cleaning van.

[Spruce]

Feel like there is a lot of scare mongering in this thread. I’ve been using lithium for the last 4 years or so. DIY packs for me as it’s been a bit of hobby.

Yes lithium isn’t designed to be charged below 0C. But can discharge lower than that. It’s very rare for your battery pack to get that cold inside a case. As been mentioned you can buy packs that have have thermal heating pads to keep the pack over 0C which isn’t much.

I would recommend someone like fogstar https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/lithium-leisure-battery

I use the same cells as in their batteries for home storage.

I would also recommend a dc-dc charger. Like Victron Orion tr 12/12-30amp.  It will charge the battery and is like the modern version of a split charge relay. Newer vehicles do not like older style split charge so this is the modern going forward way anyway.  Mine is Bluetooth so can read battery state. So on.

So now the scare is yes it does cost more than a lead acid battery. But has many many more cycles 4000-6000 full depth cycles. So cheaper in the long run. You should get years out of it. 

Lighter to me is just a win side effect in a window cleaning van.

I also have a b2b battery charger that has programming for lithium. Mine is a Sterling  bb1260 which can be switched over from 60 to 30amp. It also has a battery temperature probe for use with lithium.

So apart from price considerations I have the equipment to convert to lithium.  But I also know that replacing an alternator on my van isn't cheap and it's a pain to remove as its put in the most inconvenient place. I've done it.

However, when answering questions from cleaners who make a comment without doing an in-depth study of the subject before hand, I feel you have to point out the pit falls and worse case scenarios.

So to you, using lithium is no problem as you have the knowledge and experience, both of which the o/p hasn't got which is evident by his post.

[matthewprice]

I thank you for everyone’s opinion/ experience.I have absolutely no experience of lithium batteries. But I am definitely in need of reducing payload . I have advantage of being able to mains charge in my garage . So far the only real problem is charging in the cold weather .  Looks like I could get 50amp battery. But could discharge it more than a leisure battery I have . Matt

[Spruce]

I thank you for everyone’s opinion/ experience.I have absolutely no experience of lithium batteries. But I am definitely in need of reducing payload . I have advantage of being able to mains charge in my garage . So far the only real problem is charging in the cold weather .  Looks like I could get 50amp battery. But could discharge it more than a leisure battery I have . Matt

The great thing about lithium is that you can discharge the battery further than a lead acid battery.
If you have a 100 amp lead acid battery you have a useable amount of amps of 50 as you shouldn't go below 50% of the batteries capacity.
With a lithium you can use more of that batteries capacity without reducing its longevity. It's reported that you can take out 80 to 90% of it's capacity.

I can't ever recall us taking our lead acid leisure battery down to anywhere near 50% of its capacity by using 50 amps in a day.

[a900]

Another advantage to lithium is that a good battery will have onboard management… well they all should have it. Anything that’s a ready made battery pack. This protects the battery from under charge.

Where as with lead acid you could say leave your pump on over the weekend and drain your battery and reduce its life. Lead acid is happiest at full charge and doesn’t like being discharged to empty as it reduces the cycles. Not an issues for lithium with battery management to shut it off at low charge and is happy through it’s charge range.