[Ascjim]

Morning all

We had a warning from the environmental agency regarding hypo running into surface drains from a roof clean.

How do you guys collect and correctly dispose? I'm also told we shouldn't let any chemical run off on to any soil or grass whats so ever.

I'm more concerned how to collect and dispose from render cleans.

[Smudger]

Strictly speaking your not allowed water run off from drives into the drains as it contains motor oil

not sure how that works for the stuff all over th roads ?

what sort of warning did you get?

Darran

[Pete Thompson]

I often wondered about this, I’m not surprised it’s happened.

I’ve seen mobile car valeting companies set up portable trays and booms to collect the effluent as they’re not allowed to let it go down the drain.

Wheelie bin cleaning companies go to great lengths to collect the effluent they create too.

Those things are nowhere near as toxic as hypo. I think now this is on their radar, you hypo boys are going to have to come up with a solution quick.

[deeege]

I often wondered about this, I’m not surprised it’s happened.

I’ve seen mobile car valeting companies set up portable trays and booms to collect the effluent as they’re not allowed to let it go down the drain.

Wheelie bin cleaning companies go to great lengths to collect the effluent they create too.

Those things are nowhere near as toxic as hypo. I think now this is on their radar, you hypo boys are going to have to come up with a solution quick.

Do they? The firms by us all swill their bins into the street, I havnt seen a single one collect the waste water.

[Splash & dash]

I often wondered about this, I’m not surprised it’s happened.

I’ve seen mobile car valeting companies set up portable trays and booms to collect the effluent as they’re not allowed to let it go down the drain.

Wheelie bin cleaning companies go to great lengths to collect the effluent they create too.

Those things are nowhere near as toxic as hypo. I think now this is on their radar, you hypo boys are going to have to come up with a solution quick.

I think you need to go back to school hypo is not toxic😂😂😂 it’s a naturally forming substance try Google and look at bleach lakes in America , and it can legally be washed to drains provided they don’t go into rivers , it breaks down into salt that’s perfectly harmless . We have done a lot of jobs ware the EA have been involved and provided you get your risk assessment right they don’t have any issue with diluted hypo going into road drains , as I said already said  it’s not going into a river., and if it is if you take the  right precautions it’s  still not a problem , The main issue hear is ones don't know what they are doing with hypo and others just spout  about a subject they know nothing about and try scaremainering.

[Martin Lane]

We have a large contract in Bristol, we used to jet wash all the bins every 3 months inside the bin stores that had a drain in them, soakaway drain, The Estate manager had a company  around to do an inspection  of the whole site the day the bins were being cleaned. We were told that we needed a letter from the environment agency because we were putting contaminated water down a soakaway drain even tho it was only dirty water.
After calling them they would not agree to this happening and now we have to move all the bins to a main drain and not a soakaway drain, she told me that you should get permission even if jet washing a path with the water going on to grass or dirt.
They can fine you up to £10k

[DJW]

Interesting subject. I just googled Hypo and also googled surface drainage.
Rather glad I don’t use the stuff.

Odd that it can be used to wash patios down etc.

[Ascjim]

They told me nearly all surface water drains go into a river or treatment plant. We will need permission from the water company to allow chemical to go down any drain.  The issue is we cover an area of 5 water companies.

Was also told any run off water needs to be collected and disposed of correctly. Not an issue, just need practical ways of doing it.

Even Benz Black Wash COSHH accessment states chemical can't go down drains or into soil.

This is our first issue with soft washing in 15 years. I am worried about the future as we clean a lot of housing associations and we can clean up to 100 houses per contract.

[simon w]

Pretty much all household bleach goes down a drain of some sort

[Martin Lane]

someone I know jet washes massive sites all over the uk, from football stadiums to London train stations , some  of his site he has two men jet washing and another 3 with wet pick up machines, as the water is only allowed down one allocated drain, he has even hired one of them street cleaning drain machines to store the used water, then has to pay to dump it at the tips.

[Splash & dash]

They told me nearly all surface water drains go into a river or treatment plant. We will need permission from the water company to allow chemical to go down any drain.  The issue is we cover an area of 5 water companies.

Was also told any run off water needs to be collected and disposed of correctly. Not an issue, just need practical ways of doing it.

Even Benz Black Wash COSHH accessment states chemical can't go down drains or into soil.

This is our first issue with soft washing in 15 years. I am worried about the future as we clean a lot of housing associations and we can clean up to 100 houses per contract.

Ask the water authority how they deal with any chemical incident , I’ll tell you the answer it’s dilution hypo is harmless once diluted , the  fire service will just pump tons of water into any contaminant and dilute it until it’s safe and 99 times out of 100 it goes straight down the drains , how do I know this been doing it for the fire service for 35 years , we regularly do softwashing jobs near water sources and the EA are more than happy for the waist to go down the drains , as I said earlier know how to do a risk assessment and lease with them it’s not a problem, hack them off and they will make your life hell and follow you from job to job . Just as a side point one of the worst substances for causing environmental damage  is milk , this is usually contained if at all possible.

[Pete Thompson]

I often wondered about this, I’m not surprised it’s happened.

I’ve seen mobile car valeting companies set up portable trays and booms to collect the effluent as they’re not allowed to let it go down the drain.

Wheelie bin cleaning companies go to great lengths to collect the effluent they create too.

Those things are nowhere near as toxic as hypo. I think now this is on their radar, you hypo boys are going to have to come up with a solution quick.

I think you need to go back to school hypo is not toxic😂😂😂 it’s a naturally forming substance try Google and look at bleach lakes in America , and it can legally be washed to drains provided they don’t go into rivers , it breaks down into salt that’s perfectly harmless . We have done a lot of jobs ware the EA have been involved and provided you get your risk assessment right they don’t have any issue with diluted hypo going into road drains , as I said already said  it’s not going into a river., and if it is if you take the  right precautions it’s  still not a problem , The main issue hear is ones don't know what they are doing with hypo and others just spout  about a subject they know nothing about and try scaremainering.

Well I'm always happy to be educated by someone who knows better, but simply saying its a "naturally forming substance" as if that makes it all fine is pretty hilarious. Cyanide is a naturally occurring substance, as is chlorine gas.

You say it is non-toxic, is that an accurate statement?

This is what Public Health England says here in its Toxicological Overview:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/427651/Sodium_hypochlorite_TO_PHE__130515.pdf

Summary of Health Effects

Sodium hypochlorite itself may be toxic if ingested, or by dermal or ocular exposure. If mixed
with acidic solutions chlorine gas is produced, and mixing with ammonia-based solutions
gives rise to chloramine solution, both of which contribute to toxic effects.

Ingestion of small volumes of sodium hypochlorite causes burns to the mouth and throat,
gastrointestinal irritation, nausea and vomiting. Ingestion of any amount of industrial strength
bleach (>10% sodium hypochlorite) or large amounts (approximately 300 mL in adults;
100 mL in children) of household bleach (<10% sodium hypochlorite) may cause abdominal
and retrosternal pain and diarrhoea. Aspiration of liquid may lead to pulmonary complications
such as acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS).

Inhalation of chlorine gas causes burning of the throat and lungs, eye and nose irritation,
chest tightness and coughing. At higher levels of exposure, tachypnoea, cyanosis and
swelling of the airway may occur. Pulmonary oedema and respiratory failure may arise in
severe cases, the onset of which may take up to 36 hours.

Sodium hypochlorite is corrosive and may irritate the skin or cause burning, pain,
inflammation and blisters. Ocular exposure can cause irritation, pain, lacrimation and
photophobia.

It doesn't sound like Public Health England agrees with you.

I'm now finding I'm interested to know exactly what the regulations are on disposal of it.  Do you have any links to government sources?

[Splash & dash]

I often wondered about this, I’m not surprised it’s happened.

I’ve seen mobile car valeting companies set up portable trays and booms to collect the effluent as they’re not allowed to let it go down the drain.

Wheelie bin cleaning companies go to great lengths to collect the effluent they create too.

Those things are nowhere near as toxic as hypo. I think now this is on their radar, you hypo boys are going to have to come up with a solution quick.

I think you need to go back to school hypo is not toxic😂😂😂 it’s a naturally forming substance try Google and look at bleach lakes in America , and it can legally be washed to drains provided they don’t go into rivers , it breaks down into salt that’s perfectly harmless . We have done a lot of jobs ware the EA have been involved and provided you get your risk assessment right they don’t have any issue with diluted hypo going into road drains , as I said already said  it’s not going into a river., and if it is if you take the  right precautions it’s  still not a problem , The main issue hear is ones don't know what they are doing with hypo and others just spout  about a subject they know nothing about and try scaremainering.

Well I'm always happy to be educated by someone who knows better, but simply saying its a "naturally forming substance" as if that makes it all fine is pretty hilarious. Cyanide is a naturally occurring substance, as is chlorine gas.

You say it is non-toxic, is that an accurate statement?

This is what Public Health England says here in its Toxicological Overview:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/427651/Sodium_hypochlorite_TO_PHE__130515.pdf

Summary of Health Effects

Sodium hypochlorite itself may be toxic if ingested, or by dermal or ocular exposure. If mixed
with acidic solutions chlorine gas is produced, and mixing with ammonia-based solutions
gives rise to chloramine solution, both of which contribute to toxic effects.

Ingestion of small volumes of sodium hypochlorite causes burns to the mouth and throat,
gastrointestinal irritation, nausea and vomiting. Ingestion of any amount of industrial strength
bleach (>10% sodium hypochlorite) or large amounts (approximately 300 mL in adults;
100 mL in children) of household bleach (<10% sodium hypochlorite) may cause abdominal
and retrosternal pain and diarrhoea. Aspiration of liquid may lead to pulmonary complications
such as acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS).

Inhalation of chlorine gas causes burning of the throat and lungs, eye and nose irritation,
chest tightness and coughing. At higher levels of exposure, tachypnoea, cyanosis and
swelling of the airway may occur. Pulmonary oedema and respiratory failure may arise in
severe cases, the onset of which may take up to 36 hours.

Sodium hypochlorite is corrosive and may irritate the skin or cause burning, pain,
inflammation and blisters. Ocular exposure can cause irritation, pain, lacrimation and
photophobia.

It doesn't sound like Public Health England agrees with you.

I'm now finding I'm interested to know exactly what the regulations are on disposal of it.  Do you have any links to government sources?

MAY BE toxic,  you may be hit by a bus  tomorrow,  we aren’t talking about someone drinking bleach or mixing it with other chemicals causing gasses etc ,we are using bleach with an approved surfactant to clean a surface and diluting it within the legal  perimeters,  I have spent many years building up a very good working relationship with the EA ,HSE ,and many other  bodies this is why we get some of the contracts that we do as  I have spent a lot of time and money researching and getting the right risk assessment s in place  ime certainly not passing on all that on a public forum ,but will re state again there is no issue having diluted hypo go down drains  the EA  are more than happy with what we do and have on many occasions have visited the sites we work on taken samples  on a daily basis and we have never had any problems. , There is a saying a little knowledge is dangerous

[Pete Thompson]

MAY BE toxic,  you may be hit by a bus  tomorrow,  we aren’t talking about someone drinking bleach or mixing it with other chemicals causing gasses etc ,we are using bleach with an approved surfactant to clean a surface and diluting it within the legal  perimeters,  I have spent many years building up a very good working relationship with the EA ,HSE ,and many other  bodies this is why we get some of the contracts that we do as  I have spent a lot of time and money researching and getting the right risk assessment s in place  ime certainly not passing on all that on a public forum ,but will re state again there is no issue having diluted hypo go down drains  the EA  are more than happy with what we do and have on many occasions have visited the sites we work on taken samples  on a daily basis and we have never had any problems. , There is a saying a little knowledge is dangerous

Well so far you've progressed from "hypo is not toxic😂😂😂" (your words not mine) to it "MAY BE toxic".

Risk assessments are great, of course, but what are the actual regulations? Are there any?
What do the COSHH documents of Sodium Hypochlorite say regarding getting it down drains, on soil etc?

I'm genuinely interested to know.

but will re state again there is no issue having diluted hypo go down drains  the EA  are more than happy

If that’s true, then why has the OP had a warning letter from the EA?

[Splash & dash]

MAY BE toxic,  you may be hit by a bus  tomorrow,  we aren’t talking about someone drinking bleach or mixing it with other chemicals causing gasses etc ,we are using bleach with an approved surfactant to clean a surface and diluting it within the legal  perimeters,  I have spent many years building up a very good working relationship with the EA ,HSE ,and many other  bodies this is why we get some of the contracts that we do as  I have spent a lot of time and money researching and getting the right risk assessment s in place  ime certainly not passing on all that on a public forum ,but will re state again there is no issue having diluted hypo go down drains  the EA  are more than happy with what we do and have on many occasions have visited the sites we work on taken samples  on a daily basis and we have never had any problems. , There is a saying a little knowledge is dangerous

Well so far you've progressed from "hypo is not toxic😂😂😂" (your words not mine) to it "MAY BE toxic".

Risk assessments are great, of course, but what are the actual regulations? Are there any?
What do the COSHH documents of Sodium Hypochlorite say regarding getting it down drains, on soil etc?

I'm genuinely interested to know.

but will re state again there is no issue having diluted hypo go down drains  the EA  are more than happy

If that’s true, then why has the OP had a warning letter from the EA?

I was quoting you with may be toxic , if mixed with inappropriate substances then yes it can be , but used correctly it’s not again a little knowledge is dangerous like the ones that say put a bit of fairy in hypo . Potentially very dangerous but many do it on a daily basis thinking it’s safe .
I am fully aware of the regulations , but again it took me many years and courses  and  hiring a chemist for a few weeks to get the correct paper work in place so as you can guess it was a very expensive process and I won’t give that away to potential firms that might be trying to quote for the same jobs , I don’t intend  naming the firm but there logo is a large African  animal how do you thing they get all the nhs contracts for softwashing  hispitsls all over the country ? Do they contain thousands of gallons of run off ??

[Splash & dash]

As for the op I cannot comment I don’t know the guy or his working practices or risk assessment or the job in hand so it would be wrong to speculate, I can only comment on our business dealings with the EA and HSE

[zesty]

Must admit I had a load of apartment blocks to clean in Cambridge this last year, but had a bad feeling about it. I just haven’t felt comfortable spraying hypo about on that scale.

Plus I’m based in Essex so it’s a bit of a trek each day!

Anyone that way might get a phone call asking to quote at any moment 

I just decided I didn’t want to do it. Rare for me,  I’ve never turned down a softwash job. This one was just too big and too risky with so many people about and the concern of windows being open etc etc.

Splash, I dont understand what mixing fairy could do? I can’t see anything in fairy that’s dangerous to mix with hypo…

[Slacky]

A fella I know a couple of months back accidentally mixed bleach with descaler and ended up in hospital A/E for a few hours.

[Smudger]

Then he’s made a new compound - that’s no longer bleach

Bleach returns to salts - this happens quickly and with the dilutions used in softwashing is inactive before it reaches the drains - with further dilution it is generally harmless

Please note - you have it swimming pools and on farms and it’s sprayed on growing veg.

Sometimes these things are blown up way out of proportion- yes if you tip 20 litres of 14% hypo into a storm drain there will be issues… but that’s a rogue trader not generally your average cleaning company

Also in the mix are H&E people with no sense - happy to ban everything - used properly there should be no issues with bleach

Darran

[Splash & dash]

Must admit I had a load of apartment blocks to clean in Cambridge this last year, but had a bad feeling about it. I just haven’t felt comfortable spraying hypo about on that scale.

Plus I’m based in Essex so it’s a bit of a trek each day!

Anyone that way might get a phone call asking to quote at any moment 

I just decided I didn’t want to do it. Rare for me,  I’ve never turned down a softwash job. This one was just too big and too risky with so many people about and the concern of windows being open etc etc.

Splash, I dont understand what mixing fairy could do? I can’t see anything in fairy that’s dangerous to mix with hypo…

Look up hylothorms and clorothorms  sorry spelling isn’t right , but in a nut shell  it can cause a carsonogenic  substance