[AuRavelling79]

Some people are are thrown out of work with a redundancy package at a certain age. Imagine you are fairly fit aged 45 with mortgage and young family and been used to earning 40K a year before you lost your low middle management high pressure job job. You have say tens of thousands in  redundancy and you would like to work for yourself but never have.

Yes, WE all know we could start up ourselves and canvass and build a round in a year and grow it - but they don't.

That is possibly the best fit for a franchisee and a franchisor I would imagine. And if they get in with someone like Vin everyone is happy.

Not for me but horses for courses.

[Smudger]

I just don’t understand why anyone would hand over a certain percentage of their hard earned cash every year to someone else.

Anyone can start up window cleaning, it’s not something that requires special training (much) or a powerful brand. I get the idea of franchising for something like Burger King, it’s a strong brand with a ready made customer base.

But there’s no such thing for window cleaning.

I would guess that by the 3rd year, a franchisee is going to be pretty fed up handing over their profit once they themselves have the knowledge and experience to do it on their own. And they’ll also be fed up being restricted in the areas they can work.

I’d be very surprised if the lifespan of a franchisee was beyond 3 years. After that they’re surely going to break away and go it alone, taking the customer base with them (as customers don’t belong to anyone)

This is where a lot of us underestimate ourselves - it is hard to do windows (successfully) - as an employer why would my lads work 35 hours a week for a set wage when they could "just" go out and keep 100% of the take ?

Simple...

Not  everyone can do the canvassing, they cant afford the tools/van, but most of all they don't want the uncertainty of no regular income - especially in the early years - nor do they want the stress of collecting money and looking for more work...

Yes there are some here that have maybe "just" fallen into window cleaning via benefiting from a family round - or helping mates out or not having any other option and as a single operator make a living ( for example Daz - he makes a good living but he has next to no rent - no family - no mortgage ) put that to someone having 3 kids to cloth and feed - rent of inexcess of £1k the prospect of running their own biz is most likely to stressful - Franchise offers a great option - relative small outlay - but regular income where you pay a small override - you hit the ground running with a stack of customers and if things go well only increase and make more and quite rightly if someone is providing you with that work they get a commission - just like anyone in the entertainment industry pay their agent for getting them a gig/work etc..

Darran

[Smudger]

Zesty - what are you implying ?? 

Darran

[Stoots]

I just don’t understand why anyone would hand over a certain percentage of their hard earned cash every year to someone else.

Anyone can start up window cleaning, it’s not something that requires special training (much) or a powerful brand. I get the idea of franchising for something like Burger King, it’s a strong brand with a ready made customer base.

But there’s no such thing for window cleaning.

I would guess that by the 3rd year, a franchisee is going to be pretty fed up handing over their profit once they themselves have the knowledge and experience to do it on their own. And they’ll also be fed up being restricted in the areas they can work.

I’d be very surprised if the lifespan of a franchisee was beyond 3 years. After that they’re surely going to break away and go it alone, taking the customer base with them (as customers don’t belong to anyone)

This is where a lot of us underestimate ourselves - it is hard to do windows (successfully) - as an employer why would my lads work 35 hours a week for a set wage when they could "just" go out and keep 100% of the take ?

Simple...

Not  everyone can do the canvassing, they cant afford the tools/van, but most of all they don't want the uncertainty of no regular income - especially in the early years - nor do they want the stress of collecting money and looking for more work...

Yes there are some here that have maybe "just" fallen into window cleaning via benefiting from a family round - or helping mates out or not having any other option and as a single operator make a living ( for example Daz - he makes a good living but he has next to no rent - no family - no mortgage ) put that to someone having 3 kids to cloth and feed - rent of inexcess of £1k the prospect of running their own biz is most likely to stressful - Franchise offers a great option - relative small outlay - but regular income where you pay a small override - you hit the ground running with a stack of customers and if things go well only increase and make more and quite rightly if someone is providing you with that work they get a commission - just like anyone in the entertainment industry pay their agent for getting them a gig/work etc..

Darran

Exactly, I think some of us forget how much balls it takes to stray from the traditional employee route and go it alone. It isn't as easy as "just starting your own round".  Yes we can look back and say well that wasnt so hard after all but thats easy to say in hindsight. Most people stay in the safe employed route because they are afraid of failure, how many millions of people dream about bigger things but never do it. People are drawn to safety and guarantees, its a survival instinct which is hard to break, it doesnt come naturally to us to take risks . That's why franchises sell, they are playing on the fact we cant cope with uncertainty and thus people will happily hand over money to save themselves from mental torment.

[KS Cleaning]

I can see why a new start up would buy into a window cleaning franchise which provides a guaranteed amount of work. On the other hand I fail to understand why anyone would buy into a window cleaning franchise where there is no work supplied.

[NWH]

What you are saying KS is my view that is nothing
More than a con and way to make money nothing else,if you’re established and been doing it for years you could do that tomorrow.

[AuRavelling79]

What you are saying KS is my view that is nothing
More than a con and way to make money nothing else,if you’re established and been doing it for years you could do that tomorrow.

We all know your opinion. You repeat it ad nauseum. No more of it in this thread please.

[Perfect Windows]

I’d be very surprised if the lifespan of a franchisee was beyond 3 years. After that they’re surely going to break away and go it alone, taking the customer base with them (as customers don’t belong to anyone)*

* They can't take the customer base with them if the agreement is written correctly.



Our first franchisee is renewing in August after ten years.
Our second just renewed at just over nine years (different agreement lengths).
Our third is just about to renew at seven years (ditto).

All suggests they're moderately content.

None of them has ever had to find a customer, choose equipment or even know how to set up water production. If anything breaks that they can't fix I drop everything and sort it out.  They have cover from the other franchisees in case of long-term illness or accident. Soon there's likely to be a spare van for times they are off the road. When we find a better way to do anything they all find out. They all have Aworka and new jobs just appear on there. They never leaflet or canvass. They haven't had to shop around for van or liability insurance. If they phone, I answer. If there are hassles with customers I deal with it. Direct Debits are handled on their behalf. In short, they have no concerns to bother about apart from going out, cleaning windows and taking as much time off as possible.

Vin

[dazmond]

Franchising is only gonna grow and grow in window cleaning as more business minded people get involved in the trade....I know a few franchisees and they are happy and they earn more than me(but they work longer hours and some saturdays)

Each to their own....

[NWH]

Vin I know what you’re saying about the contract etc as far as the customers go but this will not stop it happening I know for a fact it does and has happened,you can’t tell anyone who to have as their window cleaner when you take a customer on they might sign up to you for 12 months but after that time or if they pay you up early that’s it.
If the franchisee is not allowed to go near you’re customers for a year after they leave that won’t stop them being poached in another name,I’ve seen this happen not saying you’re model doesn’t work at all but you are relying on genuine stand up people you couldn’t possibly track all the jobs poached and who they were from it would be a nightmare legally.

[Hazzah]

Franchising = a loophole to not go VAT registered ;-)

A franchise can have 10 vans and they wont need to be VAT registered, if you are a company then u got to start paying VAT as soon as u hit 85k (2-3 vans)

[Smudger]

Not a loophole at all - it’s quite clear if your turnover is  85+ k you pay vat

As each franchise is a deprecate biz then it’s each franchise that will pay vat when turnover demands it - and the franchiser will also pay vat when his/her “cut” reaches 85k - which if you have 4 or 5 on the go and then receive 30k for 2 new franchises can easily put you in the vat bracket

Darran

[NWH]

Yes but the idea is you keep under the VAT limit isn’t it I could completely come off the tools rent my business out to a couple of cleaners and take a % each month from both,they are self employed and I remain self employed at the end of the day.
Everything is done to keep Tax down in business if it’s going Ltd dividing you’re business in to a franchise etc lol.

[Perfect Windows]

Franchising = a loophole to not go VAT registered ;-)

A franchise can have 10 vans and they wont need to be VAT registered, if you are a company then u got to start paying VAT as soon as u hit 85k (2-3 vans)

We're VAT registered.

[Hazzah]

Not a loophole at all - it’s quite clear if your turnover is  85+ k you pay vat

As each franchise is a deprecate biz then it’s each franchise that will pay vat when turnover demands it - and the franchiser will also pay vat when his/her “cut” reaches 85k - which if you have 4 or 5 on the go and then receive 30k for 2 new franchises can easily put you in the vat bracket

Darran

If any business wants to grow a fleet of vans and not pay VAT.. then franchise is the way

Franchise is just a way around of not being LIMITED  and robbing the HMRC ;-)  but its a legal way of doing it  

Franchising is the easiest route to expansion 100%

[Smudger]

If you franchise then you don’t have a fleet of vans but several individual businesses - which is the point really

Darran

[Perfect Windows]

If any business wants to grow a fleet of vans and not pay VAT.. then franchise is the way

Franchise is just a way around of not being LIMITED  and robbing the HMRC ;-)  but its a legal way of doing it  

I've tried to be polite but this is just plain wrong.  We're limited and we're VAT registered. Being Limited and being VAT registered are utterly unrelated. You can be Limited and not VAT registered. You can be a sole trader and VAT registered.

You claim that franchising is "just a way around of ... robbing the HMRC".

Our franchisees run their own businesses. They own and run their own vans. We don't have a fleet.

We licence them to use our brand; kit out their vans; give them a great deal of help and guidance; we do all the marketing required for them to have full rounds.  In return for this and other services they pay us a royalty. If they go over the VAT limit they will have to register and pay.

We are a limited company, VAT registered, and we pay VAT on the fees paid to us. Yes, we pay it; when we went past the VAT limit we lowered the royalty percentage so the franchisees wouldn't be hit.

Tell me again how we're "robbing the HMRC". Be very careful, as it's a strikingly bold claim to make on a public forum.

Vin

[NWH]

I don’t think  Vin would post anything on here if he was robbing the HMRC tbh lol.

[Jay Le Huray]

If any business wants to grow a fleet of vans and not pay VAT.. then franchise is the way

Franchise is just a way around of not being LIMITED  and robbing the HMRC ;-)  but its a legal way of doing it  

I've tried to be polite but this is just plain wrong.  We're limited and we're VAT registered. Being Limited and being VAT registered are utterly unrelated. You can be Limited and not VAT registered. You can be a sole trader and VAT registered.

You claim that franchising is "just a way around of ... robbing the HMRC".

Our franchisees run their own businesses. They own and run their own vans. We don't have a fleet.

We licence them to use our brand; kit out their vans; give them a great deal of help and guidance; we do all the marketing required for them to have full rounds.  In return for this and other services they pay us a royalty. If they go over the VAT limit they will have to register and pay.

We are a limited company, VAT registered, and we pay VAT on the fees paid to us. Yes, we pay it; when we went past the VAT limit we lowered the royalty percentage so the franchisees wouldn't be hit.

Tell me again how we're "robbing the HMRC". Be very careful, as it's a strikingly bold claim to make on a public forum.

Vin

some great points there Vin.
Jay

[Hazzah]

There is 2 business models.... a LTD company and a Franchise, the franchise model was made so people could deter VAT for a longer period,  no wonder all u guys are window cleaners... because u dont have a clue about things like this  Stick to cleaning windows boys.

If any business wants to grow a fleet of vans and not pay VAT.. then franchise is the way

Franchise is just a way around of not being LIMITED  and robbing the HMRC ;-)  but its a legal way of doing it  

I've tried to be polite but this is just plain wrong.  We're limited and we're VAT registered. Being Limited and being VAT registered are utterly unrelated. You can be Limited and not VAT registered. You can be a sole trader and VAT registered.

You claim that franchising is "just a way around of ... robbing the HMRC".

Our franchisees run their own businesses. They own and run their own vans. We don't have a fleet.

We licence them to use our brand; kit out their vans; give them a great deal of help and guidance; we do all the marketing required for them to have full rounds.  In return for this and other services they pay us a royalty. If they go over the VAT limit they will have to register and pay.

We are a limited company, VAT registered, and we pay VAT on the fees paid to us. Yes, we pay it; when we went past the VAT limit we lowered the royalty percentage so the franchisees wouldn't be hit.

Tell me again how we're "robbing the HMRC". Be very careful, as it's a strikingly bold claim to make on a public forum.

Vin

I havent qustioned u or anything? I really do not know why you are explaining yourself on a public forum? I am  just talking in general terms of what the difference is between franchising and LTD company... I havent asked u to giv me an analysis of your business ..  a few franchises are VAT registered i understand but like i said if anyone wants to avoid paying VAT for a longer period then franchising is the way.