[Richard iSparkle]

Are they zero hour contract ?

Darran

They’re on full time contracts

[Smudger]

So  how do we it work - as you are paying %  known as outwork (or similar) and you are not supposed to have set hours or days - workers may set there on start finish etc… thus you take  an average amount and f the last 52 weeks (not inc holidays or sick) when having time off - just trying to understand how you are working this

Darran

[Richard iSparkle]

So  how do we it work - as you are paying %  known as outwork (or similar) and you are not supposed to have set hours or days - workers may set there on start finish etc… thus you take  an average amount and f the last 52 weeks (not inc holidays or sick) when having time off - just trying to understand how you are working this

Darran

It’s really simple to be honest

It’s all based around regular repeating window cleans so it’s very dependable and consistent

The guys get the van to keep at home and have an amount of work we set them. The set their own level pretty much, so long as it’s a min of £350 a day

Not sure what you mean about not having set hours or set days?

They work Mon-Fri all year round

[Smudger]

so basically your not paying hours your paying "piece" work - if they complete their 350 in 5 hours or in 9 hour they get paid the same ?

so if I worked for you and took 2 weeks holiday how do I know what im going to be paid ? - 30% of the 350 per day £116

what I mean about the hours is outworkers ( paid on piece work or a percentage ) get to choose hours or work - start and finish times - not the employer - personally I think its a brave decision to pay only % of income other than hourly rate  - I don't have the in depth knowledge to know legally whether you are on the right side of employment law or not but i can fore see issues with the system if weather effected - equipment breakdowns - no van for the day

Darran

[Richard iSparkle]

so basically your not paying hours your paying "piece" work - if they complete their 350 in 5 hours or in 9 hour they get paid the same ?

so if I worked for you and took 2 weeks holiday how do I know what im going to be paid ? - 30% of the 350 per day £116

what I mean about the hours is outworkers ( paid on piece work or a percentage ) get to choose hours or work - start and finish times - not the employer - personally I think its a brave decision to pay only % of income other than hourly rate  - I don't have the in depth knowledge to know legally whether you are on the right side of employment law or not but i can fore see issues with the system if weather effected - equipment breakdowns - no van for the day

Darran

your annual leave rate is worked out as an average of their earnings. I think it's  average of their last 3 months earnings. that's based on employment law, my bookkeeper knows the specifics.

the chaps keep their vans at home and can start and end when they like provided the worklist  is completed.  I'm not paying them by the hour but on work completed (unless they are  not completing enough work when they are on minimum wage (which means they're training))

there have been no issues with not being able to work. quite the opposite. last year is the first time no van has frozen and been unable to work in the morning. they keep the vans at home and know if they cant work they will be down or catching up at weekends.

likewise when the van needs a service or work done they sort it themselves at weekends or out of work hours so they can keep earning.

they are happy enough with the system as it seems fair to fair and they earn great and have lots of freedom.

i believe its all well and good with employment law from the advice i've had. like you I'm not an expert, but i don't overly worry about stuff like that as everyone is happy with the system and it seems fair and they understand it







in terms of being unable to wor

[NWH]

I don’t know how easily your blokes can do their 350 but I would say if they are expected to do that everyday they don’t get much free time tbh,some people can hit that figure effortlessly but if you have lots of small houses even if grouped together will take time to complete.
The types of domestics I do I couldn’t just have people rock up at weekends they wouldn’t go for that on my work,350 in some areas is hard to hit starting at 8 through till 4 saying you can start when you like is fine but they probably all go out and have to start at 7-30-8 o’clock lol.

[Richard iSparkle]

I don’t know how easily your blokes can do their 350 but I would say if they are expected to do that everyday they don’t get much free time tbh,some people can hit that figure effortlessly but if you have lots of small houses even if grouped together will take time to complete.
The types of domestics I do I couldn’t just have people rock up at weekends they wouldn’t go for that on my work,350 in some areas is hard to hit starting at 8 through till 4 saying you can start when you like is fine but they probably all go out and have to start at 7-30-8 o’clock lol.

They do it easily. If they start on the glass at 8 they’re finished by 3 or earlier

If they can’t they don’t last the training TBH

[Mark Dee]

Darren they are employed they arent self employed subcontractors. I think that is where there is some confusion.

It sounds a good model to run Richard. They have the protection of an employer employee relationship and you have great control  over your cleaning labour cost.

[Smudger]

There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement

There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )

But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid

Darran

[Richard iSparkle]

There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement

There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )

But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid

Darran

We’ll  always have to deal with to$$er$ at some point

You can give people the cr*p jobs in hourly pay too

You can be a bad employer whatever system you use

[Smudger]

There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement

There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )

But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid

Darran

We’ll  always have to deal with to$$er$ at some point

You can give people the cr*p jobs in hourly pay too

You can be a bad employer whatever system you use

Of course you can - but they are not penalised financially where I feel some one somewhere in the future may throw this up - a lot depends how often the staff get together to talk

Darran

[Richard iSparkle]

There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement

There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )

But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid

Darran

We’ll  always have to deal with to$$er$ at some point

You can give people the cr*p jobs in hourly pay too

You can be a bad employer whatever system you use

Of course you can - but they are not penalised financially where I feel some one somewhere in the future may throw this up - a lot depends how often the staff get together to talk

Darran

Maybe. We rotate the rounds so the usual moan is the opposite. That they get a new round.

But yeh any system will have things that arise from it for sure

[Smudger]

I notice you didn't answer my query ....

Darran

[Mark Dee]

There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement

There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )

But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid

Darran

I would imagine they are contracted for 30+ hours a week at a lawful wage rate. They make up their hourly rate with a pre agreed productivity bonus, if they voluntarily work an extra 30 mins as and when to reach that bonus target then I presume they are happy otherwise they would leave.

I dont know what figure they earn but I would imagine its in the £25-30 k per annum area. Its all a guess only Richard knows but I would be happy with a nett of £15-20k per employee. Happy productive staff members will make you good money over the long haul. (numbers based on a window cleaning round with consistent cash flow.)

[NWH]

Cheers Lee 🤣

[Richard iSparkle]

I notice you didn't answer my query ....

Darran

I can’t see a query to be honest.

What’s the Q again?

[Smudger]

yes maybe a little subtle are your guys zero hours?

Darran

[Richard iSparkle]

yes maybe a little subtle are your guys zero hours?

Darran

No. Full time hours permanent contracted

[Smudger]

thats where Im having trouble Richard - how are they full time hours ? when you pay only a  % or work not an hourly rate please explain...

Darran

[NWH]

The way I understand it - their bonus they would be entitled to the full basic pay when they are on holiday.