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Dean champion

  • Posts: 63
Hotbox gone wrong
« on: January 24, 2022, 08:56:37 pm »
had an absolute nightmare with my Genie hot box from The cleaning warehouse. Just had them remove it a few weeks back  as it kept shutting down during the day and was running at 22c (from reel not brush head)  between shut downs, had it back a week running at 36c (from reel not brush head) and now it’s shutting down again and running at 22c.
Back on the phone with them today asking what are they going to do next about it and there getting back to me after speaking to the boss. Already lost 2days work for the removal and re fit and £100 in diesel getting there and back as it’s 6 hours each way. What would you guys expect from them now if you was in my position??

I would say they have been more then helpful with trying to rectify the issue but I’m  back to square one now after today

 What does your guys water come out at from reel as I don’t think mine has ever got to the optimal temp ???

Thanks

Jonny 87

  • Posts: 3488
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2022, 09:49:43 pm »
Nightmare when things go wrong.

Do you know what size heater it is?

If it’s a 9kw then you should get scalding hot from it.

5 kw then 40 degrees should still be easy.
Vision Technician / Visual Engineer /  Vision Enhancement Operative /...........................................................OnlyUseMeWFP AkA Jonny the Windy Wesher

Dean champion

  • Posts: 63
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2022, 10:31:13 pm »
5kw heater but it’s is not a webasto heater like others

They said It can hit 45c but only hit 36c at best on my one which I feel now has not been right from the off


colin bird

  • Posts: 1189
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2022, 04:58:20 am »
I feel your pain mate ,having lost two days work,it all sounds very stressful

I fully appreciate the benefits of hot water,but more things can go wrong,I use cold water ( not the best in winter ) less things to go wrong,and in the event of breakdowns easier to repair yourself

Jonny 87

  • Posts: 3488
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2022, 08:02:15 am »
What I would suggest for when you get it sorted, is have some sort of pressure relief valve fitted or recycle feature.

That means hot water will go back to the tank warming it up and giving you hotter water as the  day goes on, but also it will stop the heater shutting down during the day which can stop a lot of problems. They like to keep running.
Vision Technician / Visual Engineer /  Vision Enhancement Operative /...........................................................OnlyUseMeWFP AkA Jonny the Windy Wesher

dazmond

  • Posts: 23966
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2022, 08:38:41 am »
had an absolute nightmare with my Genie hot box from The cleaning warehouse. Just had them remove it a few weeks back  as it kept shutting down during the day and was running at 22c (from reel not brush head)  between shut downs, had it back a week running at 36c (from reel not brush head) and now it’s shutting down again and running at 22c.
Back on the phone with them today asking what are they going to do next about it and there getting back to me after speaking to the boss. Already lost 2days work for the removal and re fit and £100 in diesel getting there and back as it’s 6 hours each way. What would you guys expect from them now if you was in my position??

I would say they have been more then helpful with trying to rectify the issue but I’m  back to square one now after today

 What does your guys water come out at from reel as I don’t think mine has ever got to the optimal temp ???

Thanks

You really need a 9kw heater to get decent heat to your reel and hose/brush....

Any window cleaners who have had the 5kw heaters installed have only managed to get luke warm water at best to their brush head at this time of year....
price higher/work harder!

dazmond

  • Posts: 23966
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2022, 08:42:43 am »
Also why is it shutting down during the day?

Are you plugging the return valves back into your tank between jobs?

Do you fire it up first thing in the morning before driving to your first job?

What battery bank are you using?(you need at least 2 x105ah batteries in tandem)

Are you charging them up every night?

Do you have a split charge relay fitted too?
price higher/work harder!

dazmond

  • Posts: 23966
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2022, 08:47:08 am »
Insufficient batteries and charging can reduce heat from your heater...

Not enough fuel in your tank can also shut your heater down

Not plugging back into return valves within a few mins will also cause your heater to shut down
price higher/work harder!

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2022, 09:48:25 am »
5kw heater but it’s is not a webasto heater like others

They said It can hit 45c but only hit 36c at best on my one which I feel now has not been right from the off

What make of diesel heater is it then?

I'm sure all hydronic diesel heaters work in the same way. They are basically designed as engine preheaters for use in areas that experience subzero temperatures.

When they are fired up they heat the coolant water in the engine to bring the engine up to normal operating temperature. When they are first fired up they produce heat in full output mode. Once the coolant water reaches a predetermined temperature the heater (furnace) then goes into a reduced heat output mode. Once the coolant water has reached its highest temperature (around 80 degrees C) (I can't remember the exact settings) the heater automatically goes into shutdown mode. This shutdown can take around 90 secs on a Webasto Thermo Top C. As the heater is still switched on, the heater's water pump will continue to circulate coolant water.
If the coolant water drops to say 65 degrees, the heater will reactivate, which will take another 90 secs.

What the wfp suppliers have done is adapted this principle to the window cleaning industry.
The heater heats up an internal water circuit which includes a header tank and 1 or 2 heat exchangers depending on the system.
The heat exchangers are plate to plate heat exchangers. They zap or transfer the heat produced in the internal circuit to the water being pumped to your pole.

The first issue. If you start your diesel heater as you are about to start your first clean, a 5kw heater is never going to heat your water fast enough, and it will take forever to get any heat at the brush head. So the recommendation is to start your heater on the way to your first job.

Let's look at the second issue. Let's say your heater has gone into shutdown mode as its reached its highest internal circuit temperature. You start cleaning windows. The temperature will be zapped from the internal circuit bringing it down to that 65 degree mark. The heater will then fire up again and take around 90 seconds to come fully into heat mode. While this is happening, your water started off hot and went cold when the internal temperature dropped well below 65 degrees until the heater fully started. Now you are back to the first issue. Added to this, what little heat that was in the water was lost to the environment from the hose on the ground.

One solution is to fit a pressure relief valve after your hot box to divert hot water back to your tank when you switch your pole tap off. Yes, your pump will run all the time, but it will keep your heater working. Ionics use this solution with their hot water system. They use a 65psi relief valve.
My solution was to add another heat exchanger, a 3rd Shurflo pump (I have a 2 man system) and a 12v digital temperature controller.  With my 9kw Webasto heater I have set my controller to activate this 3rd pump at 83 degrees C and switch it off at 78 degrees C. So if I spend an hour talking, my heater will just remain in this reduced heat output mode until I start cleaning again. Even although I have set my output water temperature to my pole at 50 degrees C at the heater, it takes a long time before I feel any benefit at the brush head. In fact, with the hose running across a length of cold grass, the temperature at the brush head is barely lukewarm.

My gut is telling me that it's an application issue rather than a mechanical issue with your heater.
TBH my water isn't set hot enough for me to see any major cleaning rate improvement. But it's nice to have more manageable hoses. I can adjust the mixer valve to obtain a higher output water temperature, but if I do, I starve the second heat exchanger of heat.

Many years ago I made up a test rig to experiment with diesel hot water systems.

 

A 5kw barely managed to heat 1.5lpm of water to my brush head from 9 degrees to 35 degrees C. The calculation stated that to do this the heater would have to generate 2.65kw of heat.  At first glance a 5kw should be able to do this, but nearly 50% of the heat produced by these heaters goes out of the exhaust and other heat loss areas.
 


 




Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Simon Trapani

  • Posts: 1561
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2022, 10:38:08 am »
Spruce, wtf are you doing cleaning windows? You’re too clever mate!

Stoots

  • Posts: 6211
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2022, 11:37:59 am »
Nearly spat my drink out looking at that contraption Spruce  :D

How do even conceive such an idea, Legend.

DJW

  • Posts: 1008
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2022, 12:44:36 pm »
Strange, I have a 5kw Webasto on a boat that heats the hot water tank and radiators so can’t be that bad 🤷‍♂️

Bungle

  • Posts: 2389
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2022, 01:25:08 pm »
Talking of hot water. What happened to the fella who was going to go into production?
We look at them, they look through them.

Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2022, 05:14:02 pm »
Strange, I have a 5kw Webasto on a boat that heats the hot water tank and radiators so can’t be that bad 🤷‍♂️


That’s totally different you are constantly re circulating the water in that scenario with window cleaning the water is exiting the loop onto the glass

Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2022, 05:15:02 pm »
Talking of hot water. What happened to the fella who was going to go into production?


Chris dall do you mean ?? He’s gone very quite not Hurd a thing since .

tlwcs

  • Posts: 2088
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2022, 06:26:00 pm »
Talking of hot water. What happened to the fella who was going to go into production?


Chris dall do you mean ?? He’s gone very quite not Hurd a thing since .

Richie, wasn’t it?

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2022, 06:38:16 pm »
P&F.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Bungle

  • Posts: 2389
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2022, 07:35:26 pm »
We look at them, they look through them.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2022, 08:52:02 pm »
I admired Richie for his ability to take something apart and redesign something different, like he did with those Chinese air heaters.

It's the ability some have to be able to think and act out of the proverbial box I admire. He was also trying to make an affordable hot water heater for the proverbial masses - a potential Henry Ford of the window cleaning industry.

I have no idea why he has gone quiet regarding his heater, but I did have a few concerns myself, which may have been unfounded in practice.

Hot air rises, and mounting the unit vertically with the heater on top meant pushing those exhaust gasses downhill and out through the exhaust pipe through the floor. I did think that this would cause issues. Better it would have been to have the exhaust gasses exiting through the roof of the van, but that would open a whole new can of worms. When the air heater shuts down, latent heat from the heater pipe would rise and could cause internal damage to the heater components, like warping the plastic blower fans, for example.

The other concern was the copper tube he tightly wound inside the heating tube - his heat exchanger. When heat is applied to copper, the copper degrades/deteriorates over time. Yes, there is water passing through it, but those exhaust gases are very hot, burning away at the outside of the copper tube.

Safety  would be another concern. Even with a copper heat exchanger, that heating tube the exhaust gases are channelled though would be extremely hot.

I would also worry about water in the copper tube overheating when the operator turned off the tap. I think Richie incorporated a pressure relief valve that would release/bleed very hot water back into the tank. This meant the pump would have been running continuously.  But I felt that was open to risk.

I'm registered with the Chinese air heater page on Facebook. Those Chinese heaters are not the most reliable. Users using the heater for the purpose it's designed for report no end of failures after a relatively short period of time in operation. Glowplugs seem to be high on the failure list, as are fuel pumps. Many heaters need to have their fuelling rate reset as some complain they over fuel and coke up very quickly. They don't appear to be set up at the factory to be a 'plug and play' item.

These, however, are just my opinions and in no way are meant to detract from the efforts Rich has put into this concept.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Dean champion

  • Posts: 63
Re: Hotbox gone wrong
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2022, 09:38:53 pm »
Thanks all for the info specially spruce

Answers to many questions below

What make of diesel heater is it then? It’s a Russian make which name I can’t make out on the warrant card supplied with the hotbox heater, all the info is English just the name of company is Russian

Are you plugging the return valves back into your tank between jobs? I don’t do this between jobs only on the way to the first

Do you fire it up first thing in the morning before driving to your first job? Yes on timer

What battery bank are you using?(you need at least 2 x105ah batteries in tandem) Yes

Are you charging them up every night? Yes

Do you have a split charge relay
 fitted too? Yes

Also why is it shutting down during the day?
System has been shutting down due to code
25 appearing  on digital pane. The info below is what was sent to me by supplier when code first appeared

technical has provided me with the following in regards to the error code you are seeing.
Code 25 = The coolant is being heated up too quickly.
The cause of this is due to the pre-heater goes into the cooling down mode three times in one cycle in less than 6 months.
The method of repair for this are the following: Check the entire liquid circuit for air blocks, Check the pump, Check the overheating sensor and the temperature sensor, Check the antifreeze for suitability at current ambient temperatures.

After they had this info they removed hotbox from van to fix in there yard, they replaced coolant  pump , digital panel and flushed header tank / radiator ( I think I’m saying that right) , and sent heater to supplier which was diagnosed as ok and sent for re fit. After re fit was all working in yard aswell as for me on glass  for 4 days 36c from reel then code 25 appeared again shutting down system. Iv not used it since.

Wish I’d looked at getting the 9kw but didn’t even give it a thought as I’m a one man band, might get them to fit the 9kw and pay the extra if the faulty hotbox needs replacing altogether?

Thanks