[windows_chepstow]

I'm probably going to get 'slapped' for this post and told to do it properly, but anyway, here goes...

As far as I understand it, a self-employed person is classed as self-employed if he fits the following criteria:

1.   Uses his own tools and equipment.
2.   Decides his own working methods.
3.   Chooses when he starts and finishes work.
4.   Has something like at least 80% of his own work, if he does sub-contract work.

There's also other indicators (I believe after reading previous posts here), such as who paid for his self-employed public liability insurance.

So what if I took someone on - let's call him a 'self-employed contractor' - and:

1.   Rented him tools and equipment.
2.   'Taught' him the best working methods, which he would probably decide to do.
3.   Suggest what time he starts and finishes work; and if he chooses too; then that's his choice.
4.   Rented him a round; at least on paper.
5.   Paid the contractor a start up bonus, which would be enough to cover his public liability insurance (which isn't a legal requirement to have anyway).

For tax purposes, wages paid would be 'sub-contrator's payments'.

I'm not worried about the 'man management' issues (problems), as I've dealt with everything from abortion issues, to suicides, maritial and debt problems during my 17 years in the army.

I'm more interested to know what members of this forum think. 

My first rule would be safety first, and no working at height.

Anyway, do you think this is stretching the rules a bit too far and would would be the possible legal issues if something went wrong? 

[pdl]

Best I can advise is go to inland revenue web site and look at document IR56.

This explains everything you need to know about Employed or Self Employed

[Jeff Brimble]

I have done it for 6 months whilst missus was ill. Approx 1 ish day/week. Speak to your accountant( He wont like it). Would I do it again ? -maybe. You have to have total trust in each other, otherwise forget it
He HAS to have his own PL ins.

[ecowasher]

better to buy in his services.  pay him an agreed daily rate for which he invoices you.  with regards to tools etc,  you may want to sell them to him,  possibly reflecting this cost in a drop off against his daily rate, increasing his rate back to full once paid for.

If he uses or rents your tools,  you have an obligation to the 'jobworthyness' and h&S condition of those tools - avoid.

the above are merely my thoughts,  and do not reflect any references to actual accepted practices. if unsure,  check out the various emplyment websites etc.

[windows_chepstow]

Best I can advise is go to inland revenue web site and look at document IR56.

This explains everything you need to know about Employed or Self Employed

PDA,

Cheers, good pointer, I've just printed out the five pages of it (IR 56).

After a quick perusal, it seemed it is difficult to 'stretch' the rules and 'employ' someone on a 'self-employed' basis.

But now I've just looked at it a little deeper; I reckon there's some scope in the regulations; particularly the section which asks 'If you can answer 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean you are self-employed.'

I think each point could be countered, if someone 'worked for you' on a self-employed basis; that would mutally benifit both you and your 'self-employed employee' and you'd still remain within the law.

Wor Lass is good, but only to a point.  Sometimes we're limited by school timings and school holidays and it's a pain to drop her off back home; only to have to head out to some distant area to continue working.

Also what puts me off about employing someone 'proper' is the possible liabilty I may incur if he has an accident (he could trip over a hose and smash his face in, for example, and I'm the 'cack' big style for some regulation I may not even have read), for the sake of only one-day-a-week. 

And, from what I've read here, the cost of employment liability insurance is quite off-putting.

The thing is, I'd love to do it properly, but at the moment, I only need someone part time; one good worker; one day per week; eight hours.

Is this possible to do, while remaining within the law on a cost-effective basis?

[steve m]

I used to be self employed in the same sort of way you are on about, but in transport(as a driver).I was told by an accountant that as long as I invoiced two different people/companies within a twelve month period it was all ok. I did this for 9 years without a problem using his vehicle,diesel and insurance. If its different in w/c I dunno

[Trevor Knight]

Tosh I am surprised in you, first you want to know how to get dodgy large jobs that remain cost effective, now you want to break the next rule "Self employment" Tut Tut 

If you want to ring me I may be able to guide you in the right direction of course.

Best wishes,

Trev

[Morph]

Having someone with you "self-employed" is all about control.
The less control you have over the other person, the easier it will be to prove they are self employed.
ie.  They need to be using their tools, doing the job in their time, giving you their price/invoice...etc.
If you have control of those main areas, you are in control, not them, so they are employed by you.
Remember the principle: "Who is in control?"

[windows_chepstow]

Tosh I am surprised in you, first you want to know how to get dodgy large jobs that remain cost effective, now you want to break the next rule "Self employment" Tut Tut 

If you want to ring me I may be able to guide you in the right direction of course.

Best wishes,

Trev

Trev,

As Sarah would say, you have e-mail!

[D woods]

Hi Tosh
Last month I had a PAYE inspection from the Inland Revenue,what they
was most intrested in was self employed sub contractors.

What you are proposing is a not acceptable to them and you would be
liable for all the tax and national insurance plus intrest and a fine.

[kiral1404]

I'm thinking of going down this route. I'm heading to the coast at the turn of the year and was going to employ my stepson but didn't want to go vat reg when i start out down there. So i thought if he leases my tools and customers from me would that do and has any one else down this.
He'll be his own boss doing his own hours and getting his own customers

[Skyglide]

There has to be an answer out there.
I have new customers every day in droves. Getting another van next week and expanding. Would appreciate any advice.
Chris

[kiral1404]

Initially i was gonna employ and do a 50/50 split of what the round is worth but as its my stepson gonna do a 55/45 split his way maybe 60/40. I know i can trust him and at the end of the day if he doesn't work hard enough he doesn't get as much for himself.
He won't have to collect the money as its set up for a cheque and envelope system the customers will have had there windows done wfp for upto 18 months and he'll have scope to get his own on top.

Its got to be the way ahead for expanding without employing

[WavieDavie]

Excellent information on employment status for you to mull over
www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm

And from within that link is this
www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/ir56.htm

[DASERVICES]

  Tosh,

  In the same basket and have taken on a lad but looking at ways to on how to
  employ him avoiding paying holidays etc..

  In answer to your question No you cannot take him as self employed, there
  was a recent court case where a guy fell off his ladder whilst on a roof. The
  contractor asked him to use scaffolding which he refused. They used him as
  self employed but the court ruled as 80% of his work came from them he
  was an employee, the firm was fined. Wish I could remember where I saw
  this.

  I rang ACAS and found out that if you take someone on as casual labour
  then you are not eligible to pay holidays etc..

  As far as the tax man who I spoke to you are liable to pay his tax and NI as well
  as company NI. If they did an audit on you and the guy was self employed they
  could ask you to pay the tax and NI even if your guy paid these, as they see
  him as an employee.

  The way I see it speaking to IR and ACAS if 60% of his work comes from you
  he is an employee.

  It's a minefield still looking into it.

  Doug

[abacus]

Hi tosh
I believe but its not gosbal that if you rent him the round and invoice him for the round plus any other services you give he is sel employed but you do have to lose control a little on the extra howeverif he does not do enough houres or his work is not good enough you can simply stop renting him the round problem solve

regards grant

[gaza]

Theres a guy around here whos got 6 lads working for him,ON LADDERS I will ask him how he does it if Ibump into him.

  GAZA

[dave0123]

How about this

couldnt you have some1 self employed working along side you say 3days aweek doing work with you or over the road etc what ever giving him so much per day of the daily takings, then on the last 2 days of the week or what ever give him some jobs ov his own to do u could get rid of the pain in the ar**e jobs and some nice big accounts then take rental for the van or car he uses.

just a thought..
dave

[Moderator David@stives]

Tosh

if you are going to employ , do it right, if you want to chat about it give us a ring.

It is cheaper and better to employ than sub contract

Dave

[Skyglide]

Dave@St Ives

You have mail.

Chris