[DaveG]

Hi all, first post for a while. I hope all is good with you all.

Right, the problem. I've been using a pumped 4040 (80psi) for the last 3 years and I've got through 3 membranes, The latest one has only lasted since March this year. When first installed, it got the tds down from 360 to 009, now it's only getting it down to 062. I read of some people having membranes that last 3 or 4 years?

I flush every 3 days or so and change the two 20" pre filters every 3 months. I usually produce around 8/900 litres a day, 5 days a week.

Any suggestions on anything to do/change or could it be down to rubbish membranes? I'm paying around £150 a time for them..

[Perfect Windows]

If there's even a hint of slipperiness inside your 4040 housing, you have bacterial growth in there. I'd suspect that, given your description, that's the problem you have. A fresh membrane will solve the problem until it's fouled by bacteria. Flushing will do nothing as the bacteria stick like glue.

Take all the pre filters out, the carbon and the particle and your knackered membrane (throw it in the bin). Try to set your 4040 at an angle so it will be full to the brim with water when water starts to come out of the waste/pure outlets (i.e. so there isn't an airlock in there).  Fill the filter vessels with water (again so no airlocks), reconnect all hoses and find yourself a big bucket. Pour 2L or 4L (it's only 19p a bottle) of thin bleach* into the bucket and top it up with water.

Dip the connector that's normally attached to your tap into the bucket. If it's too far away, run a length of hose to it, connect it and dip the other end of that into the bucket.

Put the waste and pure outlets into the bucket.

Start your pump. Run it for half an hour so the bleach is thoroughly mixed throughout the system. You should have bleachy water disappearing up the inlet hose, going through your whole system and coming out of the outlets into the bucket to go round again. You may well have to top up the bucket.

Leave for 24 hours minimum, ideally 48 hours, running the pump for ten minutes every four hours or so. You need the chlorine to be refreshed through every single part of your system.

Then reconnect everything as it should be and run clean tap water through for an hour letting the waste go into the IBC or into soil**.

Finally, put in brand new prefilters and the new RO.



You're right. This is all a massive pain, but it solves the problem. And it's nothing like as complex as it sounds. You're just trying to run bleach through every hose, connector and pump that you use for long enough that any bacteria are wiped out.

Long term, make sure there's nowhere in the hose run where dirt or air can get in - that's the root cause. I realised that I had a very very slowly dripping connector in my garden and I reckon it was drawing dirty water in when the system wasn't under pressure. And on that front, always, always, always start the tap before starting the pump. It'll help you to prevent dirt being drawn in.

Vin

*Do not, under any circumstances use thick bleach.  I did once and it produced so much foam that the bottom of the garden looked like it had snowed. At the moment thin bleach is hard to find in the shops but don't be tempted. If necessary go to a cleaning supplies place to find some.

** I run the outlet of bleached water into my IBC and leave it for 12 hours then into the tank in the van for 12 hours.  I know I've been shot down for this in the past but one day someone on here will kill a customer with Legionella bred in warm tank water and there'll be hell to pay.  Bleach kills legionella.

[Splash & dash]

If there's even a hint of slipperiness inside your 4040 housing, you have bacterial growth in there. I'd suspect that, given your description, that's the problem you have. A fresh membrane will solve the problem until it's fouled by bacteria. Flushing will do nothing as the bacteria stick like glue.

Take all the pre filters out, the carbon and the particle and your knackered membrane (throw it in the bin). Try to set your 4040 at an angle so it will be full to the brim with water when water starts to come out of the waste/pure outlets (i.e. so there isn't an airlock in there).  Fill the filter vessels with water (again so no airlocks), reconnect all hoses and find yourself a big bucket. Pour 2L or 4L (it's only 19p a bottle) of thin bleach* into the bucket and top it up with water.

Dip the connector that's normally attached to your tap into the bucket. If it's too far away, run a length of hose to it, connect it and dip the other end of that into the bucket.

Put the waste and pure outlets into the bucket.

Start your pump. Run it for half an hour so the bleach is thoroughly mixed throughout the system. You should have bleachy water disappearing up the inlet hose, going through your whole system and coming out of the outlets into the bucket to go round again. You may well have to top up the bucket.

Leave for 24 hours minimum, ideally 48 hours, running the pump for ten minutes every four hours or so. You need the chlorine to be refreshed through every single part of your system.

Then reconnect everything as it should be and run clean tap water through for an hour letting the waste go into the IBC or into soil**.

Finally, put in brand new prefilters and the new RO.



You're right. This is all a massive pain, but it solves the problem. And it's nothing like as complex as it sounds. You're just trying to run bleach through every hose, connector and pump that you use for long enough that any bacteria are wiped out.

Long term, make sure there's nowhere in the hose run where dirt or air can get in - that's the root cause. I realised that I had a very very slowly dripping connector in my garden and I reckon it was drawing dirty water in when the system wasn't under pressure. And on that front, always, always, always start the tap before starting the pump. It'll help you to prevent dirt being drawn in.

Vin

*Do not, under any circumstances use thick bleach.  I did once and it produced so much foam that the bottom of the garden looked like it had snowed. At the moment thin bleach is hard to find in the shops but don't be tempted. If necessary go to a cleaning supplies place to find some.

** I run the outlet of bleached water into my IBC and leave it for 12 hours then into the tank in the van for 12 hours.  I know I've been shot down for this in the past but one day someone on here will kill a customer with Legionella bred in warm tank water and there'll be hell to pay.  Bleach kills legionella.

There is no need to leave the bleach in the system for so long after a maximum of about an hour it will have killed everything off , it should all be dead within a few muinits . We do this with all our vans every 18 months or so .
Legionella will only form in stagnant non moving water that has been stood still for many days or weeks and it needs to be between specific temperatures that is unlikely to be the case in our tanks unless using hot water , but I agree it’s worth being cautious

[Simon Trapani]

I would guess it’s either your buying of cheap membranes and/or your waste to pure ratio.

Never had bacterial growth in my 4040 static which supplies two vans daily in the 12 years or so I’ve had it.

Hardly ever flush either as there’s enough waste water flowing over my membrane.

[Perfect Windows]

There is no need to leave the bleach in the system for so long after a maximum of about an hour it will have killed everything off , it should all be dead within a few muinits . We do this with all our vans every 18 months or so .
Legionella will only form in stagnant non moving water that has been stood still for many days or weeks and it needs to be between specific temperatures that is unlikely to be the case in our tanks unless using hot water , but I agree it’s worth being cautious

I'd probably do it for an hour if I was doing it as a maintenance measure.

Vin

[DaveG]

If there's even a hint of slipperiness inside your 4040 housing, you have bacterial growth in there. I'd suspect that, given your description, that's the problem you have. A fresh membrane will solve the problem until it's fouled by bacteria. Flushing will do nothing as the bacteria stick like glue.

Take all the pre filters out, the carbon and the particle and your knackered membrane (throw it in the bin). Try to set your 4040 at an angle so it will be full to the brim with water when water starts to come out of the waste/pure outlets (i.e. so there isn't an airlock in there).  Fill the filter vessels with water (again so no airlocks), reconnect all hoses and find yourself a big bucket. Pour 2L or 4L (it's only 19p a bottle) of thin bleach* into the bucket and top it up with water.

Dip the connector that's normally attached to your tap into the bucket. If it's too far away, run a length of hose to it, connect it and dip the other end of that into the bucket.

Put the waste and pure outlets into the bucket.

Start your pump. Run it for half an hour so the bleach is thoroughly mixed throughout the system. You should have bleachy water disappearing up the inlet hose, going through your whole system and coming out of the outlets into the bucket to go round again. You may well have to top up the bucket.

Leave for 24 hours minimum, ideally 48 hours, running the pump for ten minutes every four hours or so. You need the chlorine to be refreshed through every single part of your system.

Then reconnect everything as it should be and run clean tap water through for an hour letting the waste go into the IBC or into soil**.

Finally, put in brand new prefilters and the new RO.



You're right. This is all a massive pain, but it solves the problem. And it's nothing like as complex as it sounds. You're just trying to run bleach through every hose, connector and pump that you use for long enough that any bacteria are wiped out.

Long term, make sure there's nowhere in the hose run where dirt or air can get in - that's the root cause. I realised that I had a very very slowly dripping connector in my garden and I reckon it was drawing dirty water in when the system wasn't under pressure. And on that front, always, always, always start the tap before starting the pump. It'll help you to prevent dirt being drawn in.

Vin

*Do not, under any circumstances use thick bleach.  I did once and it produced so much foam that the bottom of the garden looked like it had snowed. At the moment thin bleach is hard to find in the shops but don't be tempted. If necessary go to a cleaning supplies place to find some.

** I run the outlet of bleached water into my IBC and leave it for 12 hours then into the tank in the van for 12 hours.  I know I've been shot down for this in the past but one day someone on here will kill a customer with Legionella bred in warm tank water and there'll be hell to pay.  Bleach kills legionella.

Thanks Vin! And there was me it would be a simple fix!

I'll do a "slime check" later. 

[DaveG]

I would guess it’s either your buying of cheap membranes and/or your waste to pure ratio.

Never had bacterial growth in my 4040 static which supplies two vans daily in the 12 years or so I’ve had it.

Hardly ever flush either as there’s enough waste water flowing over my membrane.

Thanks Simon. My waste/pure is around 60/40 so hopefully that's about right although it doesn't seem to matter! Who would you recommend for membranes?

[Perfect Windows]

I would guess it’s either your buying of cheap membranes and/or your waste to pure ratio.

Never had bacterial growth in my 4040 static which supplies two vans daily in the 12 years or so I’ve had it.

Hardly ever flush either as there’s enough waste water flowing over my membrane.

I'm not sure (assuming it is bacterial growth) that the bacteria care about the quality of the membrane. The material of the prefilters and the membrane are just chlorine free (thanks to the carbon filter) places for the bacteria to live.

Vin

[Simon Trapani]

I would guess it’s either your buying of cheap membranes and/or your waste to pure ratio.

Never had bacterial growth in my 4040 static which supplies two vans daily in the 12 years or so I’ve had it.

Hardly ever flush either as there’s enough waste water flowing over my membrane.

Thanks Simon. My waste/pure is around 60/40 so hopefully that's about right although it doesn't seem to matter! Who would you recommend for membranes?

I would speak to June at gapswater.co.uk

And try find your sweet spot with a gate valve. Maybe more like 70/30

[Spruce]

I would guess it’s either your buying of cheap membranes and/or your waste to pure ratio.

Never had bacterial growth in my 4040 static which supplies two vans daily in the 12 years or so I’ve had it.

Hardly ever flush either as there’s enough waste water flowing over my membrane.

Thanks Simon. My waste/pure is around 60/40 so hopefully that's about right although it doesn't seem to matter! Who would you recommend for membranes?

I would recommend Axeon from my own experience.

However Vin had some issues with Axeon.
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=221251.0

[Mike Burd]

I would guess it’s either your buying of cheap membranes and/or your waste to pure ratio.

Never had bacterial growth in my 4040 static which supplies two vans daily in the 12 years or so I’ve had it.

Hardly ever flush either as there’s enough waste water flowing over my membrane.

Thanks Simon. My waste/pure is around 60/40 so hopefully that's about right although it doesn't seem to matter! Who would you recommend for membranes?

I would speak to June at gapswater.co.uk

And try find your sweet spot with a gate valve. Maybe more like 70/30

I wouldn't. If you get a faulty membrane they want £150 to test it. Go somewhere else.

[Simon Trapani]

Test a membrane? Really Who's gonna send one back? And by the time it gets there it would be dry or ruined. In fairness to Gaps they probably get bombarded by window cleaners who often have no idea how their system works. But hey, everybody knows best. You crack on. Mine works fine.

[Splash & dash]

Doug at daqua is very good reasonably priced and good advice and in,y sells top quality kit

[Mike Burd]

Test a membrane? Really Who's gonna send one back? And by the time it gets there it would be dry or ruined. In fairness to Gaps they probably get bombarded by window cleaners who often have no idea how their system works. But hey, everybody knows best. You crack on. Mine works fine.

That's pretty much her defence - too many window cleaners don't know what they are doing. But worth knowing that if you get a faulty one it'll cost you £150 to get it tested. If it's faulty you'll get a refund but who needs that when there's other companies that will test it for free on return. I binned mine that I put into two housings with exactly the same result  and went elsewhere.

[dd]

Test a membrane? Really Who's gonna send one back? And by the time it gets there it would be dry or ruined. In fairness to Gaps they probably get bombarded by window cleaners who often have no idea how their system works. But hey, everybody knows best. You crack on. Mine works fine.

I had 2 faulty membranes (I use 3 x 100gpd membranes) on my 300gpd ro years ago and Ro-man replaced them without any quibble.

I have had my current set of membranes for years, but do use a water softener.

[Simon Trapani]

I don’t think you can compare those Ro-man setups to a 4040 imo.

But that does remind me that a water softener definitely protects membranes if you’re in a hard water area. A lot of people don’t regenerate them frequently enough though. Gapswater guesstimated i need to regenerate/backwash mine  roughly every 1000 litres of pure produced. And my softener is a large 31 litre vessel. Some of these smaller vessels are exhausted before the pure water tank is full.
 

[dd]

I find 300gpd ro perfect for me as a single operator with a static system. It produces more water than i use over a 24 hour period.

[Perfect Windows]

Test a membrane? Really Who's gonna send one back? And by the time it gets there it would be dry or ruined. In fairness to Gaps they probably get bombarded by window cleaners who often have no idea how their system works. But hey, everybody knows best. You crack on. Mine works fine.

I received an Axeon that never had a decent flow rate and never settled down to the correct rejection rate. Close but no cigar. So I contacted GAPS to have it replaced. They said they'd have it back but that their wholesaler wanted £150 to test it.

I know a bit about what I'm doing as we have six franchisees plus me, so that's seven installed 4040s, all bought from Gaps. My level of knowledge or past spend didn't mean they would waive the £150 cost.  But hey, everybody knows best.  You crack on.

[dd]

I wonder if Gaps just say that to put people off sending the membrane back and them having to deal with it.

I do not believe the £150 fee would be valid if tested against The Sale of Goods Act.

I have found Gaps generally helpful but would be reluctant to buy a membrane of them now.

[Mike Burd]

Test a membrane? Really Who's gonna send one back? And by the time it gets there it would be dry or ruined. In fairness to Gaps they probably get bombarded by window cleaners who often have no idea how their system works. But hey, everybody knows best. You crack on. Mine works fine.

I received an Axeon that never had a decent flow rate and never settled down to the correct rejection rate. Close but no cigar. So I contacted GAPS to have it replaced. They said they'd have it back but that their wholesaler wanted £150 to test it.

I know a bit about what I'm doing as we have six franchisees plus me, so that's seven installed 4040s, all bought from Gaps. My level of knowledge or past spend didn't mean they would waive the £150 cost.  But hey, everybody knows best.  You crack on.

Additionally my faulty membrane went into two housings (she said it must be the housing - can't be the membrane) so I replaced the housing & got an identical result. Pretty much certainly therefore the membrane but still wanted £150 to test it. Binned it & went elsewhere as I was more worried about keeping the vans on the road than arguing with a supplier.