[NWH]

I must say though at the moment he would seem to have you over a barrel,any mention that he was told he had to go out to work from the beginning of all this and during would have a very good chance of winning in any court imo.

[AuRavelling79]

I must say though at the moment he would seem to have you over a barrel,any mention that he was told he had to go out to work from the beginning of all this and during would have a very good chance of winning in any court imo.

Not clear to me what is being said here.

[NWH]

Sorry I mean if he were to be sacked he would have a good case.

[AuRavelling79]

Sorry I mean if he were to be sacked he would have a good case.

I don't see that.

[Smudger]

Over 2 years employment for one - insisting he work in a pandemic/national emergency for 2  - however if the errors/customer complaints are logged and discussed officially with the employee then you can start with written warnings leading to dismissal

Darran

[AuRavelling79]

Over 2 years employment for one - insisting he work in a pandemic/national emergency for 2  - however if the errors/customer complaints are logged and discussed officially with the employee then you can start with written warnings leading to dismissal

Darran

He's not insisting he does anything not permitted by the government and indeed he is following government advice where it says businesses should continue if not specifically closed and can continue if it can be done so maintaining social distancing.

Twenty years ago employees in window cleaning were routinely sent up ladders 100 times a day; nowadays they deal with trip hazards and traffic. Corona is a very manageable risk for a wfp window cleaner. You need to be more cautious and thoughtful but it is easily done with good risk management.

Non essential factory work continues, non essential manufacturing continues as does construction. All these have far greater possibility of human to human contact than most external wfp work.

[Smudger]

Nothing is as simple and black/white or right/wrong, while you say he can work due to one line of text the overall message is stay at home, as I said before were not going to "work" as in a pace we are travelling from one property to another - no one can be certain you won't come into contact with people accidentally.

Rightly or wrongly this person claims to be worried about infection - as an employer you just need to realise and accept that ( even if it is a load of old bollo )

The simple and easy solution is give the guy time off, that's unpaid - he has has a subby lined up so no issue and in 12 weeks see if he wants to return to work or not otherwise issue a redundancy notice.

Darran

[Mike Burd]

Any help....

The government’s position is also consistent with the view currently being taken by ACAS, whose recent guidance (https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus) states:

“Some people might feel they do not want to go to work if they’re afraid of catching coronavirus. This could particularly be the case for those who are at higher risk.

An employer should listen to any concerns staff may have and should take steps to protect everyone. For example, they could offer extra car parking where possible so that people can avoid using public transport.

If an employee still does not want to go in, they may be able to arrange with their employer to take the time off as holiday or unpaid leave. The employer does not have to agree to this.

If an employee refuses to attend work without a valid reason, it could result in disciplinary action.”

It is worth noting, however, employees’ general right not to not to be subjected to any detriment or dismissal for leaving or refusing to return to a workplace where an employee is in danger which he/she “reasonably believed to be serious and imminent and which he could not reasonably have been expected to avert” under the ERA 1996.

Yep, I offered holiday/unpaid leave two weeks ago, but at this stage following the raised voices with regard to the complaints and his unwillingness to accept there was any justification for them, he's just gone sick with "depression". He's received a letter advising him of the options he's been given:

Following on from the telephone conversations with myself and Mike earlier today and with Mike on Wednesday evening, I just wanted to confirm the position at the present time.
We understand you have concerns with regards to with Coronavirus, however we can continue to work and all small businesses have been encouraged to work by the Government if they can work safely. I have investigated the possibility of furloughing just you but we are unable to do this because we need to hire someone short term to do the work you don’t want to do.
We have implemented as many measures as we can to ensure all staff’s safety, including notifying all customers that windows are to be cleaned the day before you are due,  advising that we will not post paper invoices and are sending electronic invoices where possible, advising customers that we will adhere to the 2 metre distance and ensuring a supply of gloves for all staff to wear. We have also stopped going through houses to access back windows and stopped all internal cleans. In addition you work alone.
We have booked you off for the rest of this week and next week as sick.  Going forward if you wish to carry on sick leave we will need a certificate.  We have also offered you the option to take holidays or unpaid leave or a combination of both. We have strived to do everything we can as a responsible employer.

[Mike Burd]

Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.

yeh there's a risk for sure.

that sounds pretty extreme at 40000 so id be really interested to see that details.

i'd still probably sack the guy but like i say its about balancing the risks.

this sort of thing does my head in. sometimes you have to show you'll have the fight

To avoid unfair dismissal you'd probably need to suspend, on full pay, while you carry out an investigation. Have meetings, which would be difficult and as always, if there's an argument, the deck is stacked in their favour.

Furlough him on 80% for three weeks. Then decide what to do in three weeks time. Your HR person might be right, maybe not. I'd put my money on there being way bigger fish to fry as far as HMRC go, it's 80% of one employed window cleaners wage, the budget for this runs into the hundreds of billions.

It's going to cost you either way IMO, this is the best option for everyone involved.

I'm not willing to furlough someone when I have been advised he doesn't qualify for the scheme by the employment specialists we've retained. My suspicion is the reason he's refusing unpaid or holiday entitlement is to force us into furloughing him.

His attitude towards the complaints and his general attitude have left me with little doubt that he's got to go now. My plan is immediately upon his return to issue a written warning regarding the complaints and his attitude  and go from there.

[Slacky]

Lay him off?

[AuRavelling79]

Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.

yeh there's a risk for sure.

that sounds pretty extreme at 40000 so id be really interested to see that details.

i'd still probably sack the guy but like i say its about balancing the risks.

this sort of thing does my head in. sometimes you have to show you'll have the fight

To avoid unfair dismissal you'd probably need to suspend, on full pay, while you carry out an investigation. Have meetings, which would be difficult and as always, if there's an argument, the deck is stacked in their favour.

Furlough him on 80% for three weeks. Then decide what to do in three weeks time. Your HR person might be right, maybe not. I'd put my money on there being way bigger fish to fry as far as HMRC go, it's 80% of one employed window cleaners wage, the budget for this runs into the hundreds of billions.

It's going to cost you either way IMO, this is the best option for everyone involved.

I'm not willing to furlough someone when I have been advised he doesn't qualify for the scheme by the employment specialists we've retained. My suspicion is the reason he's refusing unpaid or holiday entitlement is to force us into furloughing him.

His attitude towards the complaints and his general attitude have left me with little doubt that he's got to go now. My plan is immediately upon his return to issue a written warning regarding the complaints and his attitude  and go from there.

Look at the front page of Lee Pryor's website - it is obvious that "other responsible window cleaning companies" are working and taking steps to protect their employees and their customers.

[simon w]

Why don't you just tell him the truth 'you don't like him and you don't want him working for you anymore'.

Truth is there will be other guys willing to fill his place a team player and someone who likes you, your other employees and is willing to do a good job and keep your customers happy.

He's had two good years working for you it sounds like it's time for him to move on he'll be happier working elsewhere 

[Stoots]

Just sack him. Hes refusing to work and he's making loads of mistakes.

Just follow your disciplinary procedure if you are worried. Written warning for the mistakes, another for refusing to work.

You cant sack someone for refusing to work during this pandemic and he's covering his backside by saying its being forced to work while being scared that's causing him to make the mistakes, his solicitor is right when he says the op needs to tread carefully.

You can sack someone for whatever you like, whenever you like.

However if he has been employed over 2 years he could claim unfair dismissal so to cover your back you should follow your companys disciplinary procedure. Refusing to work is a breach of contract that counts as misconduct. Simply give him a verbal warning, if he still refuses, written, final and then sack him.

As long as the employer is following government guidelines and can provide the correct PPE and social distancing etc then the employee has no grounds to refuse to work.

I agree the employee could try to make things awkward, but i wouldnt be blackmailed by him, document everything and follow the right procedures and he hasnt a leg to stand on.

[NWH]

Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.

yeh there's a risk for sure.

that sounds pretty extreme at 40000 so id be really interested to see that details.

i'd still probably sack the guy but like i say its about balancing the risks.

this sort of thing does my head in. sometimes you have to show you'll have the fight

To avoid unfair dismissal you'd probably need to suspend, on full pay, while you carry out an investigation. Have meetings, which would be difficult and as always, if there's an argument, the deck is stacked in their favour.

Furlough him on 80% for three weeks. Then decide what to do in three weeks time. Your HR person might be right, maybe not. I'd put my money on there being way bigger fish to fry as far as HMRC go, it's 80% of one employed window cleaners wage, the budget for this runs into the hundreds of billions.

It's going to cost you either way IMO, this is the best option for everyone involved.

I'm not willing to furlough someone when I have been advised he doesn't qualify for the scheme by the employment specialists we've retained. My suspicion is the reason he's refusing unpaid or holiday entitlement is to force us into furloughing him.

His attitude towards the complaints and his general attitude have left me with little doubt that he's got to go now. My plan is immediately upon his return to issue a written warning regarding the complaints and his attitude  and go from there.

Look at the front page of Lee Pryor's website - it is obvious that "other responsible window cleaning companies" are working and taking steps to protect their employees and their customers.

He is going back to work because he has lots of employees and probably knows the work will get eaten alive by the hyenas in his areas which it would do,work will be canvassed to death everywhere customer loyalty will be tested over the next couple of years big time.

[NWH]

It’s not a case that he or anyone is acting responsibly like all of us working you have to keep going as much as you can,like I said other WCs will be out looking for business.
Forget the furlough business with this job it’s all based on loyalty and trust,if decide not to work I know for a fact people still want there windows cleaned I’ve heard it for nearly 5 weeks,a company of a certain size would lose 100s if not 1000s of customers if they didn’t work for nearly 2 months.
Say what you like about the guidelines etc people are saying it doesn’t effect you blah blah blah,you decide to stay at home for whatever reason you have in you’re head customers have their view about wanting the windows cleaned.

[Jay Le Huray]

you might be interested in reading this

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/careersandeducation/coronavirus-what-to-do-if-you-think-you-might-be-laid-off/ar-BB12OEih?ocid=spartanntp

[NWH]

By the time you’ve read up on your rights got  a solicitor etc you will be out of you’re house evicted cars and vans towed away,they’ll be so many for sale boards about it’ll look like they are plugging local elections.

[Ascjim]

you might be interested in reading this

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/careersandeducation/coronavirus-what-to-do-if-you-think-you-might-be-laid-off/ar-BB12OEih?ocid=spartanntp

This is a different situation. Being layed off and being sacked because you refuse to work are different things.

[harleyman]

Dump and replace with2......

[Dave Willis]

I don’t see many Tesco staff refusing to work so I guess he’ll go down the non essential worker route.
He’s probably looking at 90% of the country sat on their arses having a free holiday in the sunshine and can’t see why he shouldn’t do the same. Can’t blame him really.

Sack him.