[nathanharrison]

I'm a sole trader WFP for 10yrs. No accountant as I'm fairly sharp, keep good records and do self my own assessment. My son has recently started working with me 1.5 days per week, he has no other job as he does voluntary work. I pay him around £180pw transferred to his account that I can count as an expense.

I'm not sure on the best/simplest way forward.
Should I become an employer with him has my sole employee, or have him as self employed providing me with a regular invoice? Is this possible as he doesn't have any of his own equipment/van etc

What are the pro's/cons of each scenario?

Or should I just bite the bullet and go see an accountant?

[Stoots]

He's an employee mate.

[p1w1]

Simply put the way you do it at the moment he is an employee. Yes 100% speak to an accountant you usually will get a half-hour free appointment with them anyway so nothing to lose. They will know the best way to go forward that's good for you and him.

[Crystal-clear]

Yeah acc should help i think whichever way you go tho you'll be fine you won't have any National Insurance contributions to pay for him as you'll have a £3,000 employers NI allowance as well that's on PAYE.

[PHILIP HARDY]

I very much doubt you can count the £180 a week as an expence, how would you square a payment with the IR?  Would seem a much easier solution to put him on the books as an employee as long as you keep his pay below around £11K a year theres no tax and if its below £9K no NI, they may pester you to put him into a pension scheme but a letter will mean he can opt out,
The alternative is to let him go self employed using your £180 a week as a wage, he would still pay no income Tax but could pay a small amount of class 4 NI which will come in handy later in life when he wants to claim a pension (He might not think that will ever happen but it will), unless you ofcourse have made him two fortunes from window shining and he will be able to retire into luxury.

[Nick Day]

Yes he is an employee, but if he only works 1.5 days a week, let him do the books for you. It is very simple.

[Crystal-clear]

I very much doubt you can count the £180 a week as an expence, how would you square a payment with the IR?  Would seem a much easier solution to put him on the books as an employee as long as you keep his pay below around £11K a year theres no tax and if its below £9K no NI, they may pester you to put him into a pension scheme but a letter will mean he can opt out,
The alternative is to let him go self employed using your £180 a week as a wage, he would still pay no income Tax but could pay a small amount of class 4 NI which will come in handy later in life when he wants to claim a pension (He might not think that will ever happen but it will), unless you ofcourse have made him two fortunes from window shining and he will be able to retire into luxury.

£180 a week labour invoice for one and a half days work on a casual basis as an expense surely itll be fine.

[PHILIP HARDY]

I very much doubt you can count the £180 a week as an expence, how would you square a payment with the IR?  Would seem a much easier solution to put him on the books as an employee as long as you keep his pay below around £11K a year theres no tax and if its below £9K no NI, they may pester you to put him into a pension scheme but a letter will mean he can opt out,
The alternative is to let him go self employed using your £180 a week as a wage, he would still pay no income Tax but could pay a small amount of class 4 NI which will come in handy later in life when he wants to claim a pension (He might not think that will ever happen but it will), unless you ofcourse have made him two fortunes from window shining and he will be able to retire into luxury.

£180 a week labour invoice for one and a half days work on a casual basis as an expense surely itll be fine.

They wont stand for £180 a week for "casual labour" those days are long gone, they will expect you to pay the income tax and NI on it presuming if he gets £180 off you he is getting anothe £350 off someone else on his other days hes not working for you,
Its not an expence its a wage and needs to be accounted as such, theres no need not to he is below the threasholds its just a bit more work.

[SB Cleaning]

I would never work with family or friends, been there done that didn't work out for me

[AuRavelling79]

Does he have ANY other income at all? Or just what you pay him. If he had another job you might be able to justify the self employed - invoice route.

My daughter is at Uni and has a p/t job in the Uni bar on their books. When she comes to Bristol she works in a Cafe as an employee but well below tax/NI thresholds as it is only on odd weeks in the year.

So she will sometimes work for me when she is home in Bristol and she invoices me. Having three small income streams means she can genuinely say she is self employed when working for me.

[p1w1]

Does he have ANY other income at all? Or just what you pay him. If he had another job you might be able to justify the self employed - invoice route.

My daughter is at Uni and has a p/t job in the Uni bar on their books. When she comes to Bristol she works in a Cafe as an employee but well below tax/NI thresholds as it is only on odd weeks in the year.

So she will sometimes work for me when she is home in Bristol and she invoices me. Having three small income streams means she can genuinely say she is self employed when working for me.

I dont see how that works in the eyes of HMRC if she is still using all your gear then your employing her for the day, is that not right?

[RPCCS]

If you make him an employee, then you need to let your public liability insurer know,also you will need to have employer’s liability insurance too. If you make him self employed then  he will have to declare himself a such to the I R.

[SB Cleaning]

If you make him an employee, then you need to let your public liability insurer know,also you will need to have employer’s liability insurance too. If you make him self employed then  he will have to declare himself a such to the I R.

I was paying 3 times more on public liability when I employed.

[Crystal-clear]

Yeah you'll need employers liability insurance regardless if he's employed or self-employed.
You should get a really cheap quote though somewhere around £150 pa is doable if you got someone working under 50 hours a week

[Kev Martin]

Sometimes my Grandchildren work for me.  They are all on the books the days of casual payments are long gone ask any paper boy / girl

[Crystal-clear]

Sometimes my Grandchildren work for me.  They are all on the books the days of casual payments are long gone ask any paper boy / girl

Do you mean in regards to to employers no longer offering work on a invoice basis cos theres over 500m "bogus" self employed in the uk
Restaurant workers hairdressers all been told what to do no ssp no holiday pay its shocking!

[AuRavelling79]

Does he have ANY other income at all? Or just what you pay him. If he had another job you might be able to justify the self employed - invoice route.

My daughter is at Uni and has a p/t job in the Uni bar on their books. When she comes to Bristol she works in a Cafe as an employee but well below tax/NI thresholds as it is only on odd weeks in the year.

So she will sometimes work for me when she is home in Bristol and she invoices me. Having three small income streams means she can genuinely say she is self employed when working for me.

I don't see how that works in the eyes of HMRC if she is still using all your gear then your employing her for the day, is that not right?

Well she already has two employed jobs and my work is ad hoc - as in not set days and times.

Also she will go cleaning with her mum and she (my daughter) has her own personal PL insurance for cleaning AND window cleaning.

So the amount of work she does for me adds up to low hundreds in a year. I'm happy with it.

[Crystal-clear]

Sometimes my Grandchildren work for me.  They are all on the books the days of casual payments are long gone ask any paper boy / girl

Do you mean in regards to to employers no longer offering work on a invoice basis cos theres over 500m "bogus" self employed in the uk
Restaurant workers hairdressers all been told what to do no ssp no holiday pay its shocking!

But in regards to the OPs son doing a day and a half worth of cheeky window cleaning on an invoice basis I'm sure he'll be fine. Who better to ask than HMRC give em a call it's not breaking the law at all they will confirm!.
An accountant advising you to do do PAYE remember is in his financial interest so careful if they say so other accountants will tell you the truth and say it will be totally fine on invoice.

There was a high-profile case kicking about Pimlico Plumbers bloke on self-employment even earned £200,000 a year. Went to court and he lost as he tried to take holiday pay and sick pay he tried to argue that he was employed he had a good case to be fair but no cigar.
It was very much in the open and HMRC did not show interest in pursuing the company in National Insurance contributions or likewise disallowing his invoice on their expenses

So considering that your son's doing a little bit of window cleaning on invoice I'm sure will be totally fine as long as its a genuine necessary expense of your business.
Every accountant will advise you just to keep very good records and I would take a step further and just make sure your son is registered for self employment and make sure he does his self assessment.

[Crystal-clear]

Does he have ANY other income at all? Or just what you pay him. If he had another job you might be able to justify the self employed - invoice route.

My daughter is at Uni and has a p/t job in the Uni bar on their books. When she comes to Bristol she works in a Cafe as an employee but well below tax/NI thresholds as it is only on odd weeks in the year.

So she will sometimes work for me when she is home in Bristol and she invoices me. Having three small income streams means she can genuinely say she is self employed when working for me.

I don't see how that works in the eyes of HMRC if she is still using all your gear then your employing her for the day, is that not right?

Well she already has two employed jobs and my work is ad hoc - as in not set days and times.

Also she will go cleaning with her mum and she (my daughter) has her own personal PL insurance for cleaning AND window cleaning.

So the amount of work she does for me adds up to low hundreds in a year. I'm happy with it.

Totally mate and you know the best part of it
It's a tax free income for her !.anyone supprised ?

You can earn £1,000 a year as of around 2017 completely tax free on self employment income
All she'll need to do is make a note of it and whoopdie do!.

I might be crap at DIY or figuring out I could split my ladder rather than buying another one
But fortunately I'm relatively "ok" at other subjects

[KS Cleaning]

Yeah you'll need employers liability insurance regardless if he's employed or self-employed.
You should get a really cheap quote though somewhere around £150 pa is doable if you got someone working under 50 hours a week

You don’t need employers liability insurance for family.