[Crystal-clear]

People get very excited about each van making for example 360 per day takeaway VAT at 80 quid  wages potentially 120 at least running cost for van water and diesel £30 a day. That leaves £130 per day. If you are running two vans full time that's already a very serious turnover but £260 per day profit..

Has anyone with multiple vans including the big boys ever actually pay themselves more than £50,000 per year or up to the threshold?
Is it really really worth it? I know you will basically have time on your hands to do other things and still have an income but I think some people get confused and think you're raking it in that's totally not true ... in fact you're probably earning as much as someone who is working full-time alone 30h a week. How about people with 5 vans or 10 vans ? I still think as a director you would only pay yourself up to the higher rate threshold.

Do you think it's worth it going over the threshold?
I personally think the extent you need to go to it's probably about ten Van's to be probably making about £300k profit then you could probably justify paying yourself into the higher rate threshold. But that would be some turnover and some operation obviously like Lee.
I think it's good that ambitious people on the forum look at these figures and break it all down 2 vans full-time remember that's already quite a responsibility but technically you'll be earning less unless you're physically working yourself then someone working alone 25 hours a week.

Hope everyone is having a nice weekend just thought I'd throw this out here today to get people chatting

[dazmond]

i doubt any guys with a few vans and employees are left with the same profit  as a one man band at the end of the year or else why would they do it?im quite sure they will be left with considerably more profit.

[Lee Pryor]

Good post

In fact you make less than the figure you posted. Well I do lol. If we made £130 per van (12) for 21 working days a month that would be £32,760.00 a month and I can tell you its way less than that. More like £22,000 a month. Then of course you pay corporation tax, then as a director your left with what you can take as a dividend then pay even more tax.

Is it worth it? Yes I think so. As Dry clean like s to point out its certainly not 4,5,600k a year and he thinks its not worth it. I could pay myself around 200k a year and I would be happy with that. Currently I choose not to. I get just under 50k PAYE and leave the rest in to keep growing with a bigger picture in my mind for down the line. My Mrs earns over 100k a year so between us things are looking good for the future.


There are other sides to consider not just the money. I have a freedom that not many others do and if if were sick or hurt or something the business runs without me up to a point. On the down side the stress can be high from time to time which goes with it. Certain things actually get easier as you get bigger since you can spend money to put things and people in place to deal with stuff so you dont have to. I think my life is easier now with 12 than it was with 4. As with most things there are sweet spots along the way. One man band up to lets say 3 vans is nice. I think that point up to lets say 8 is actually very hard. 10 and beyond seems to be getting easier. I would like to reach 20 within 4 years.

A multi van business will never make the same margin as a one man band with only themselves and 1 vehicle to worry about. I personally think a one man band window cleaner is one of the best single person self employed jobs in the uk. As you get bigger you loose that margin considerably but you do gain other things as I mentioned and in the world of any business you will still have what is considered a "good" margin.  The business as it grows needs to focus on volume and cashflow then the money is still there.

[Crystal-clear]

i doubt any guys with a few vans and employees are left with the same profit  as a one man band at the end of the year or else why would they do it?im quite sure they will be left with considerably more profit.

I think it's better obviously but I think people don't take them seriously when some of them say it's not what people think they are right. 20% before your expenses goes off to VAT then you got your expenses.
I have a friend who's im it and he makes a lot of money his limited company I think his turnover was 3 to 400000 the vast majority of that is his profit he can also charge VAT because it's business to business. He has told me he has never paid himself more than £50,000 in one tax year he has however paid himself a pension as well and only once went over the threshold because he had some private medical treatment.

Obviously it's more the convenience and having a regular income then how much money you actually making to vans after overheads I've worked it out you're lucky to see £250 per day 2 van profit. Not turning your nose up on that obviously if lot of money and yes you're not going out but it's comparable to someone working alone in this industry this is why a lot of people stay under the VAT threshold and work alone

[nathankaye]

It's always a difficult one to answer though isn't it.
You may take on more stress etc and perhaps make as much and if not, perhaps a little bit more. However you have that peace of mind knowing that if any personal circumstances should change, that you still have a steady income coming in.  This must be a good comfort to know.

However on the flip side, some people don't think or even consider taking their business down that course and that can be for various reasons.
I'm sure one reason is because of the sore subject of pricing.  For instance, on a Facebook page for Yorkshire window cleaners, I posted a thread about being seriously under utter, because yes, Im still surprised with how low some want to charge.  I quoted £27 per clean on a 4 wkly basis and had the job booked in. Two days before the owner phones to explain he's going with a cheaper quote at £13.  Which makes me wonder if a large 4  fancy bedroom detached house is £13  how much does he charge for a basic 3 bed semi and the guy is trad.
This got greeted with a mix of reactions, mostly negative. I don't overly care about other people's prices but if I'm in an area where I know others charge more and still get the work, then I would increase my prices and thought others would be the same, but no.
So if ones charge low prices for jobs, then growing their business in size would be nothing more than a pipe dream

[Crystal-clear]

Good post

In fact you make less than the figure you posted. Well I do lol. If we made £130 per van (12) for 21 working days a month that would be £32,760.00 a month and I can tell you its way less than that. More like £22,000 a month. Then of course you pay corporation tax, then as a director your left with what you can take as a dividend then pay even more tax.

Is it worth it? Yes I think so. As Dry clean like s to point out its certainly not 4,5,600k a year and he thinks its not worth it. I could pay myself around 200k a year and I would be happy with that. Currently I choose not to. I get just under 50k PAYE and leave the rest in to keep growing with a bigger picture in my mind for down the line. My Mrs earns over 100k a year so between us things are looking good for the future.


There are other sides to consider not just the money. I have a freedom that not many others do and if if were sick or hurt or something the business runs without me up to a point. On the down side the stress can be high from time to time which goes with it. Certain things actually get easier as you get bigger since you can spend money to put things and people in place to deal with stuff so you dont have to. I think my life is easier now with 12 than it was with 4. As with most things there are sweet spots along the way. One man band up to lets say 3 vans is nice. I think that point up to lets say 8 is actually very hard. 10 and beyond seems to be getting easier. I would like to reach 20 within 4 years.

A multi van business will never make the same margin as a one man band with only themselves and 1 vehicle to worry about. I personally think a one man band window cleaner is one of the best single person self employed jobs in the uk. As you get bigger you loose that margin considerably but you do gain other things as I mentioned and in the world of any business you will still have what is considered a "good" margin.  The business as it grows needs to focus on volume and cashflow then the money is still there.

Thank you. And thanks for responding you have given us The Blueprint really love to hear things from you.

So this is a very good example you have really invested a lot of money and time advertised on TV even..massive turn over now boasting a seven-figure turnover. It's so impressive and I'm guessing from the time you had one van 2 vans 3 vans. You have pretty much only paid yourself around the higher end threshold.. Now your life is a easier so every step you took basically made your life easier.
I think it's important for people to know the bigger you get so much more expenses Mt up.

Like you say working alone big difference technically yes you're responsible for everything and you're working all the time but it's kind of comparable income wise to a salary that someone would pay himself running 3 vans or even 10 vans..

Apart from contributing tremendously to the Treasury and Society in VAT and giving people jobs. If you have only ever paid yourself up to the £50,000 per year threshold for all that work all that investment all those years of pushing and pushing. Sometimes you have to wonder with all that money and time that you put in over the decade in expanding to this point fine you have a very good business but do you ever wonder how much more money you could actually make i.e. paying yourself well over the threshold in a differnt industry or at least pushing commercial because clearly the VAT is a huge profit killer to domestic. And that's why mainly bigger companies target commercial I'm guessing.
Basically someone working alone with one van is earning the same salary as someone with 10 vans.
Someone in the sweet spot 2 vans 3 vans will be paying themselves the same amount of money £50,000. And also be able to stay off the tools.
That probably is the sweet spot.
So I guess two more vans another £160,000 turnover and you might end up paying yourself 75000 per year into the threshold am I right.

It's mind-boggling

[Lee Pryor]

No

Down the line you pay yourself a dividend in one or more large lumps. I plan to pay myself once a year. The thresholds you are refereing to dont exist when you deal with dividends. There are a differnt set and it works differently. Please also refer back to where I said I choose to only pay myself 50k and re invest the rest. So someone with 10 vans does not earn the same as a single opperator they earn way more

[Smudger]

you just charge vat on domestics - not rocket science

you are quite hung up on what people should or shouldn't be paying themselves - you take certain amounts you can also pay a dividend - if your on the route of expanding then it may look like your making next to nothing (although I wouldn't sniff at 5 x £200 a day without working for it)

you also can't compare other industies - some will have huge profits for what is perceived to be little outlay (international's for example)  others like engineering run on tighter margins as you have machinery, material, premises costs.

What you do get is at the end of it is a business you can sell - you can break it down into bits or sell as a going concern - this is much harder as a sole operator - likewise when retiring you can sell or leave it running you could always leave it as inheritance

If you want to (like Daz) carry on working on the glass in your 60's and 70's then its a that persons choice - its all down to lifestyle and the future not just what your being paid today

Darran

[Crystal-clear]

Lee the dividend Your Company will pay corporation tax due you get £2,000 tax free then it's 7 and a half percent up to the threshold of £50,000 personal earnings your company will always pay corporation tax rate on dividends which works out cheaper than paying yourself a salary after 12500. Depending if you haven't got any extra income.
Yes it's two different tax systems but essentially you pay yourself up to £50,000 with the divs. Sorry that's what I meant.
Then it's best to transfer it back to the business as a loan if you don't need it because one day down the line you may need more money  and you could end up paying a lot more tax if you have a lot of surplus. But anyhow at a large operation. An establishment with 3 vans in the same industry would be paying themselves the same system.
I know you could pay more and you choose not to but also you're not making as much profit as some people may think. So venturing out into that additional tax bracket will be costly and isn't worth it in your perspective at least

[Dry Clean]

As Iv pointed out many times there's a reason why we don't have a Virgin, Amazon or Tesco window cleaning, there just isn't enough profit in manual labour alone which is all we sell, L P is a good example, he works in an area where a one man band can do £85k to £95k but him with 14 employees would be lucky to have double that after all is paid out, remember this doesn't include his over inflated advertising spending that still has to paid back before a single penny in profit is made, this could also take years.
I do think if LP was a better business person he could have done it cheaper and been in profit a lot quicker but the end result would have been similar.

 

[Crystal-clear]

you just charge vat on domestics - not rocket science

I think it's quite difficult necessarily to up the prices lees charging £16 for a three bedroom semi there's a reason for that because of competition. Some do charge more but some charge less. Ultimately it is a hit or you could potentially lose work. You can't charge the  VAT you like you can on commercial unfortunately ;( so if £16 is a price match for everyone pretty much roughly speaking sole traders as well you are technically taking a hit on the VAT where as if it was commercial you can charge plus VAT and they won't care.

you are quite hung up on what people should or shouldn't be paying themselves - you take certain amounts you can also pay a dividend - if your on the route of expanding then it may look like your making next to nothing (although I wouldn't sniff at 5 x £200 a day without working for it) no totally not hang up at all I'm just saying it's a lot of work you're saying you're not working for it but you are always responsible for many things. I suppose looking at it from that angle I see your point yes of course from a smaller scale as well. It requires a lot of commitment work and Investment to get to that stage and some years as well. Most 10 years plus hard work. Others stay self employed for 10 years
Can under same money and if they play their Cards Right invest in different businesses or even property for basically the same security that this business can in the long run.

you also can't compare other industies - some will have huge profits for what is perceived to be little outlay (international's for example)  others like engineering run on tighter margins as you have machinery, material, premises costs.

What you do get is at the end of it is a business you can sell - you can break it down into bits or sell as a going concern - this is much harder as a sole operator - likewise when retiring you can sell or leave it running you could always leave it as inheritance


If you want to (like Daz) carry on working on the glass in your 60's and 70's then its a that persons choice - its all down to lifestyle and the future not just what your being paid today

Certainly agree with the last two paragraphs 100% and I was aware before I mentioned I said obviously you have time and many other benefits but I thought I would just break down the profit today as some people perceive a massive turnover as mainly profit the way they see profit working alone .
Darran

[Crystal-clear]

As Iv pointed out many times there's a reason why we don't have a Virgin, Amazon or Tesco window cleaning, there just isn't enough profit in manual labour alone which is all we sell, L P is a good example, he works in an area where a one man band can do £85k to £95k but him with 14 employees would be lucky to have double that after all is paid out, remember this doesn't include his over inflated advertising spending that still has to paid back before a single penny in profit is made, this could also take years.
I do think if LP was a better business person he could have done it cheaper and been in profit a lot quicker but the end result would have been similar.

It's a very good point regarding the mainstream window cleaning why don't exist

[Ooooooog]

You forgetting (unless I’ve missed it) the value that you’re adding to the business by growing it.
I pay myself f all but put it all back in and grow the business so I can flog it and sod off to the Barbados ASAP.

[Crystal-clear]

You forgetting (unless I’ve missed it) the value that you’re adding to the business by growing it.
I pay myself f all but put it all back in and grow the business so I can flog it and sod off to the Barbados ASAP.

I'm guessing you've looked into entrepreneurial relief

[Shrek]

Really? Do you pay 7.5% on dividends? My useless accountant hasn’t even mentioned this even though I’m paying 40% ffs

[Stoots]

I thought about all this not long ago after doing the sums and like you say to take home a pre tax profit for yourself of say 50 - 80k after all expenses and running costs etc etc takes quite a lot of vans and a hell of a lot of hassle.

Personally having tried for the last year to take the leap to employing and getting a second van out etc have decided its not worth it at all and that i could do 80k turnover myself without the need for a load of staff and headaches.

But it wont be done soley from window cleaning, at least not unless you live in a very good area price wise or if you want to have a life and not work 7 days a week.

So i think its time to think outside the box for me and look into other avenues of making money. I think its easy to think being a window cleaner in order to make more money it needs to be in window cleaning or related services, after all its what we know but theres a big world outside window cleaning with endless amounts of business opportunitys.


i think its worth pointing out also that just because Lee can do a million turnover with 12 vans or whatever it is that doesnt apply all over the UK. some parts you may be only 500k turnover with 12 vans, so do the math on that and your take home probably doesnt beat a sole trader guy by much if at all. Of course you dont have to clean windows just send other guys out which on the face of it sounds great... BUT sitting at home and having a guy out working can be worse, sometimes you just think id be better off doing it myself than dealing with there f ups, scheduling, customers and having to micro manage them.

[Shrek]

I thought about all this not long ago after doing the sums and like you say to take home a pre tax profit for yourself of say 50 - 80k after all expenses and running costs etc etc takes quite a lot of vans and a hell of a lot of hassle.

Personally having tried for the last year to take the leap to employing and getting a second van out etc have decided its not worth it at all and that i could do 80k turnover myself without the need for a load of staff and headaches.

But it wont be done soley from window cleaning, at least not unless you live in a very good area price wise or if you want to have a life and not work 7 days a week.

So i think its time to think outside the box for me and look into other avenues of making money. I think its easy to think being a window cleaner in order to make more money it needs to be in window cleaning or related services, after all its what we know but theres a big world outside window cleaning with endless amounts of business opportunitys.


i think its worth pointing out also that just because Lee can do a million turnover with 12 vans or whatever it is that doesnt apply all over the UK. some parts you may be only 500k turnover with 12 vans, so do the math on that and your take home probably doesnt beat a sole trader guy by much if at all. Of course you dont have to clean windows just send other guys out which on the face of it sounds great... BUT sitting at home and having a guy out working can be worse, sometimes you just think id be better off doing it myself than dealing with there f ups, scheduling, customers and having to micro manage them.

Eggs in different baskets- look at making passive income instead of grafting every hour for it

[Stoots]

Really? Do you pay 7.5% on dividends? My useless accountant hasn’t even mentioned this even though I’m paying 40% ffs

7.5 % up to the higher tax threshold i believe...

first 2k of dividends are tax free then onto the 7.5% rate

Some accountants are useless, dont believe everything they tell you. Im sure ive told my accountant more than theyve told me, dont take what they tell you as gospel always double check.

Im sacking mine after theyve done my return, too expensive and thick as pig muck.

[Shrek]

I do my return soon after April 5th so he’s just sent it back and the payment on account this year is ridiculous. Not only that he’s doubled this years bill . I’m defo sacking him this year , iv got an appointment with someone else in a week to see what they can do for me

[Ascjim]

I have 1 van out full time with 2 people.  They normally do £495.00 + VAT per day. £110.00 each in wages, £200 for me leaves £75.00 per day for everything else and the rest stays in the bank.

If render cleaning some flats or some big building that figure can go up. Some render cleaning days you can do £800.00 per day.

We only do gutter and render cleans and some pressure washing, min charge £84.00 + VAT.

I used to have 4 vans, 3 on a domestic window round and the other doing gutters and render.  Plus office staff and yard etc.

The window cleaning vans used to do around £380.00 per day while the gutter van done over £500.00.

I got rid of everyone, plus yard and kept two vans. One is out full time and other I use to do quotes. I get paid more now then I did before and semi retired at 32.

I thought having a big business with lots of staff was the goal, but when I got it I realised it wasn't what I wanted, it's what society thinks you should do.

I read all the 'self help' books by Napoleon Hill, Brain Tracey, Dale Carnegie and so on. At one point I was just like Lee Pryors, thinking that 'my / his' way was the right and only way and that anyone can do it if they put their minds to it. But it's a load of rubbish, it's what society has 'sold' to you and your a mug if you follow it.

Now I work 2-3 hours in the morning and paint / draw in the afternoons. I chose that, not society.

One book I still follow is the 4 Hour work week. Without this I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.