[Paul-kent]

I hear and read lots of horror stories about employing but unless I plan to work on the tools until I drop dead employing seems to be the only option.

What do you think makes a successful employer what do you do differently to all the other cleaners that have gone back to working on their own in stead of growing their businesses

[Smudger]

“Successful” - this could end up in a real big debate as it depends on what aspect you call successful

My honest opinion is this ( and its not meant in any derogatory way at all ) there are all kinds of people some practical, some not, some excel at maths, some at sales -  window cleaning is a “trade” that people fall into wether it’s through redundancy or no other employment and thought of employing is way down or not on the list. So when the time comes little attention has been payed to how to employ, and more importantly who to employ - this coupled with its really hard to let go of your “baby” tends to lead to a failure in employing - with all things being equal that’s pretty logical, as being self employed, doing your own thing, stopping off as and when you feel like it and answering to no one is not a great recipe for employing.

For me, day one the aim was to employ, starting out on windows at 43 I had no desire to be on the glass over the age of 55 - I set up (hopefully) to employ and being really lucky that the wife was a really good recruitment consultant we managed to pick 2 exceptional lads from the get go - we’ve had some frogs to throw back along the way but as it stands I have 5 full time and 1 part time employees - if things continue then maybe another around October to February time.
Others have done it ( he who can’t be named ) and several others that have grown over the years - I don’t know their original objectives but I would hazard a guess they gave it some consideration before taking the plunge, but I’m sure they all have this in common - they are great people persons and can man manage on a natural friendly basis

If you are going to employ - it’s not just about having the work, can you be confidence you can lead by example, deal with things professionally ( I’d. Don’t call them an ar$€ hole - even when they are! ) let go and don’t micro manage - then your in with a shout

Darran

[Richard iSparkle]

taking on and managing staff is like anything else, its a skill that you need to develop and you improve over time.

it really helps to have someone who can advise you who has experience of recruitment, how to advertise a job, how to shortlist candidates, how to interview, reference check them... i had Julie from Concept 2O mentoring me through the whole proicess which was amazing.

i think most problems are sorted here. if you recruit well you wont be dealing with half the issues down the line.

then its down to training, setting clear expectations, and giving feedback on their performance.

dont be afraid to sack them if they arent working out. have it clear in your mind what are sackable offences and dont give them the benefit of the doubt on those. it will bite you on the bum in the future if you do.

some quick things i'd say are..

attitude is everything. choose people who want to work hard in a team. WFP window cleaning is easy to train

we offer a 1 week unpaid work trial to anyone we like after interview and reference check. they dont get the job if they arent willing to do that. we rarely make them do the whole week tho. if they arent looking a good fit we let them go early. if they are looking good we usually give them 2 days unpaid them get them trained up paid

dont recruit any one who's worked as window cleaner before. they will always revert to what they know rather than the way you want them to do something

if they are showing signs of not being right in the first 2 weeks they aint gonna get better move on. dont think you can train them

[Smudger]

total noobs only for us - if they have worked for others or self employed windy at any time - no interview

Darran

[nathankaye]

A good and beneficial topic, been a long time coming 😁
I also think some good advice has been given here and certainly some food for thought for ones thinking about this in the near or not so near future.

I know for myself, in the past I have opted to train ones up and help them start their own business instead. For the record, non of these individuals have encroached upon the same areas where I work.
I have often thought there are too many variables to add additional stress for little financial gain. However as I grow into further exterior cleaning services, it is becoming much more of an ideal way forward.  The only thing which prevents me driving forward with this is my family life at the moment as that takes priority for numerous reasons. However in a couple of years, when the ickle ones are older then this will change.
So I'm quite interested in this thread myself as well

[Phil J]

total noobs only for us - if they have worked for others or self employed windy at any time - no interview

Darran

Totally agree with Darran on this one, I've made this mistake twice and won't make it again.

[Smudger]

NK - If you have a complicated family life I would say its almost better to have staff - if your required a lot at home you can leave someone cleaning and earning while you deal with the important stuff.

many on here always quote how little is earn off an employee over what you do yourself - I think people think I could earn that £45 (or whatever) per hour all for me yet I have to pay £20 to someone else ( factoring in hols/pension etc ) therefore its not worth my while.
But its extra - over and above what you could do yourself - then there's the added safety - for example I've been quite ill and unable to work yet my income is not affected ( the biz stood still ) - it looks like I may never physically be able to window clean/ pressure wash again due to nerve damage - this is where staff come into their own

Darran

[nathankaye]

Absolutely agree Darren, unfortunately my time doesn't allow to search for and train up a helper at the moment as that is time consuming to begin with and I can't take that hit at the moment.
However, I'm looking forward to when I can and like you've mentioned, the benefit of not having to overly worry about both business and family life is a strong motivation to push forward with the idea

[Stoots]

I set on a lad a month ago and now he's going to have a month off sick.

Stuff like will test you and is why most quit on it. It can be a ballache and cost you more money than it makes you in the short term.

But on the flip side you can earn more money or just earn the same money but work less hours

Example of you work 5 days a week at 250 a day you could employ someone at 500 a week and just work 2 days yourself and him 5 and earn the same money take home.

The question of course is...is it worth it to you to work less hours and have the added hassle or just do it yourself.

[johnwillan]

"Successful" -  Although very subjective I guess the answer is "someone that survives"

It's a fantastic topic full of opinions, as an example using Darren's excellent LOL phrase "he who can't named" runs a completely different set up to myself, both work well and provide results with which we are happy.

There are many many books on this subject, my favourite companies "I" would use as an example of success are "Timpson", "Richer Sounds" and "SouthWest Airlines" 

Keep it simple - use guidelines not rules, allow common sense to prevail
Look for the positives - trust until proven otherwise, look for reasons to celebrate and reward
Recruit on personality - you can train for technique
Look after the good get rid of the bad - build a positive team

HTH

John

[Richard iSparkle]

I set on a lad a month ago and now he's going to have a month off sick.

How annoying!! What’s he having a month off for?

[Stoots]

I set on a lad a month ago and now he's going to have a month off sick.

How annoying!! What’s he having a month off for?

Had an accident and needs an operation. Nothing serious ...a minor injury so I'm told.

So will off a few weeks

Very frustrating after I had just trained him up and ready to go out on his own.

The problem with only having one guy is the extra work I went out and got now all falls on my shoulders so I'm going to be working twice as hard to pay his sick pay.

To top it off I'm going on holiday in two weeks so will be no money coming in at all then to the business .

Also I can't advertise or look for more work till he comes back as I simply can't do it on my own.

The joys of employing lol.

Bit what can I do, I've spent a month training him so going to have to put up with it and see if he comes back lol.

[Richard iSparkle]

I set on a lad a month ago and now he's going to have a month off sick.

How annoying!! What’s he having a month off for?

Had an accident and needs an operation. Nothing serious ...a minor injury so I'm told.

So will off a few weeks

Very frustrating after I had just trained him up and ready to go out on his own.

The problem with only having one guy is the extra work I went out and got now all falls on my shoulders so I'm going to be working twice as hard to pay his sick pay.

To top it off I'm going on holiday in two weeks so will be no money coming in at all then to the business .

Also I can't advertise or look for more work till he comes back as I simply can't do it on my own.

The joys of employing lol.

Bit what can I do, I've spent a month training him so going to have to put up with it and see if he comes back lol.

have you got advice on this?

 at worst, you only have to pay statutory sick pay which is pretty low to be honest. annoying, but that s the worst case scenario.. i reckon it would be around £100 a week or similar

also, I wonder if you could get away with letting him go? unless he can get you for discrimination (sex, race, disabled) they don't have much they can do to you in the first 2 years as i understand

how sure are you 1 month will be the end of it?

i'd be gutted.

if its an employee who's the earned their place then support them. but someone new and unproven...

[Smudger]

you can't sack someone when they are on sick leave - but you can on return if you think he's pulling a fast one

just to add - he's not been with you long enough to get SSP - I believe he needs to have been with you for 8 weeks and rent over £95 average over this period - to be sure talk to ACAS


Darran

[Richard iSparkle]

you can't sack someone when they are on sick leave - but you can on return if you think he's pulling a fast one

just to add - he's not been with you long enough to get SSP - I believe he needs to have been with you for 8 weeks and rent over £95 average over this period - to be sure talk to ACAS


Darran

good news about the SSP. if that's the case then that solves the pain somewhat.


i don't know about sacking them for being unable to work. maybe you shouldn't do it, but I'm not sure what they can do if you were to sack them though.  i don't think you can take an employer to work for unfair dismissal for 2 years ?  or you can but you can't get anything for it? something like that. you take them to tribunal for discrimination though, but i don't think this would count as discrimination. like i say I'm not sure though.

if it were me i would be sorely tempted to do this.  i'd want to know what the accident was. if its a dangerous hobby of theirs i would consider not having them

[Smudger]

first year no problem, but if they make an issue it might effect or reputation

Darran

[Stoots]

No you cant sack them for being sick but you can sack them for no reason (other than discrimination or exercising a statutory right, which sick pay is) with less than 2 years service as long as you follow dismissal procedure.

He wont get paid for the first 7 days off i know that then its about £90 a week, so hopefully £300 worst case scenario.

I dont want to sack him btw, ive already invested time into him and if i got rid i would have to start the whole recruitment and training process all over again.

So if hes out a few weeks and comes back  and is a good employee thats got to be better than going through it all again as it would take me longer than that to find and train a new guy, although it couldnt hurt to line someone else up in the event he doesnt come back....



So i guess like i said ill put up with it for a few weeks and see how it goes.

Ive checked online on the Gov site and SSP still counts less than 8 weeks

[Crystal-clear]

total noobs only for us - if they have worked for others or self employed windy at any time - no interview

Darran

Totally agree with Darran on this one, I've made this mistake twice and won't make it again.

I'm opposite I would only entertain someone with experience.
I wouldn't probably target someone who is self-employed or who was self-employed and worked for himself doing it all himself.
But someone who has done window cleaning day in day out for several years for other companies with experience. Is used to the weather is used to the job and except certain aspects of window cleaning  that a newbies not used to. I also don't enjoy training up and spending a month with someone I've done it before and I don't have the patience to show them from connecting the pole and holding it and how to rince and then when we go onto the squeegee it gets even worse. I find that whole process is time-consuming and costly as time is obviously money.

I would rather also have someone who's used to making targets for other companies not a newbie who's gonna get fascinated with how much he's expected to make and may start having ideas to go alone.

an experienced window cleaner who's done this for other companies already is used to those targets.
I'm sure it works for you but
Can you guys elaborate why you prefer total newbies.
By the way why can't we name him in posts.

[Smudger]

if we mention "him who can't be named" we will either have several hundred posts of varying degrees of insults and arguments or the thread will be locked 

OK - I prefer to train someone with no window cleaning experience - what I look for is indicators that they have attention to detail, are enthusiastic, well presented, keen to do a good job and work hard and we click

most of the above can be assertained by their CV and then an interview

If they have never cleaned a window they have absolutely no idea what's expected - therefore they are trained exactly to the way I want windows cleaned and to the standard I want and the speed they need to reach ( this is secondary - Quality is always first )

I may waffle here-

a few years back we interviewed a guy to worked for a company that mainly did grass cutting but also windows - nice guy, well presented ticked the boxes until we came to the issue that if the weather was bad in the week he would possibly need to work a Saturday - where upon he said he could not do this - why? because he had his own little round and that would have to come first.
- good bye - good luck

when I was a line manager one of my tasks was to manage 'bank' staff for the evening shift - this was made up of students from across the world ( earning cash to pay their way ) I noticed that this shift had dreadful production rates - when I investigated things were done poorly, loading m/c, bins of stock in the correct place etc.. I tried to retrain these people to get better production rates - yet new staff that I took on brought into my way and the production rates vastly improved so over a period of 6 months I had to weed out those that kept reverting to the 'old' way

hope the above helps to clarify my thoughts

Darran

[Richard iSparkle]

if we mention "him who can't be named" we will either have several hundred posts of varying degrees of insults and arguments or the thread will be locked 

OK - I prefer to train someone with no window cleaning experience - what I look for is indicators that they have attention to detail, are enthusiastic, well presented, keen to do a good job and work hard and we click

most of the above can be assertained by their CV and then an interview

If they have never cleaned a window they have absolutely no idea what's expected - therefore they are trained exactly to the way I want windows cleaned and to the standard I want and the speed they need to reach ( this is secondary - Quality is always first )

I may waffle here-

a few years back we interviewed a guy to worked for a company that mainly did grass cutting but also windows - nice guy, well presented ticked the boxes until we came to the issue that if the weather was bad in the week he would possibly need to work a Saturday - where upon he said he could not do this - why? because he had his own little round and that would have to come first.
- good bye - good luck

when I was a line manager one of my tasks was to manage 'bank' staff for the evening shift - this was made up of students from across the world ( earning cash to pay their way ) I noticed that this shift had dreadful production rates - when I investigated things were done poorly, loading m/c, bins of stock in the correct place etc.. I tried to retrain these people to get better production rates - yet new staff that I took on brought into my way and the production rates vastly improved so over a period of 6 months I had to weed out those that kept reverting to the 'old' way

hope the above helps to clarify my thoughts

Darran

yeh i agree with all this