[wtatum]

Hi all,

Just a quick note to inform all you trad w/c out there, i visit my grandparents in Skewen, Nr Neath south wales on a wekly basis to do small jobs for them and do a bit of cleaning for them which does include windows every 2 weeks.

I went over there yesterday and they showed me a leaflet from a WFP cleaner that stated that trad w/c is now illegal and that they are the only people who comply with the law in the area. It went on to say that homeowners are now liable if a trad w/c falls while on there premises.

Has anybody heard of this type of marketing, if they have is it just aimed towards the elderly. needless to say that i will answer the door next week when they come touting.

regards
wayne

[matt]

I went over there yesterday and they showed me a leaflet from a WFP cleaner that stated that trad w/c is now illegal and that they are the only people who comply with the law in the area. It went on to say that homeowners are now liable if a trad w/c falls while on there premises.

Ohhhhhh this old chesnut   some may say the message is right, depends on how you interupt the WaH

[wtatum]

interpret or is it deliberately done as a scare tactic............ Either way it's not on.  At the end of the day it is not illegal to do trad.

[windows_chepstow]

At the end of the day it is not illegal to do trad.

That's correct, but using ladders routinely, without considering the alternatives and with disregard to the Working at Height Directive IS illegal; whether it's being 'policed' or not.

Fact!

I'm not sure how the house owner's would stand in law if a window cleaner fell on their property and subsequently attempted to sue them, but I do know that on commercial properties the owner shares the responsibility for the way their contractors work; therefore can and have been taken to court and fined when a window cleaner has fallen from their property.

Anyway, I use both ladders and a pole; and often work 'illegally' if it suits me to do so.  I'm not saying that's right, but it's my safety and my choice.

[Paul Coleman]

interpret or is it deliberately done as a scare tactic............ Either way it's not on.  At the end of the day it is not illegal to do trad.

Under some interpretations they could be correct as I understand it.  If a customer expects a window cleaner to climb a ladder, I think that they are supposed to supply eyebolts in the wall to tie the ladder to.  In practice, a W/C is up a ladder such a short time, a window could be cleaned in less time than it takes to tie a ladder.  In the unlikely event of succesful litigation after an accident, it would probably be the public liability part of the household insurance that would pay rather than the householder.
Also, the WAHD does say that alternative methods should be considered BEFORE working at height.  If working at height is necessary, a risk assessment must be made.  Whether that risk assessment is done in the head or on paper seems to be a grey area.  I believe it must be on paper if a company has more than 5 employees but otherwise it can be in the head.  Of course, I could be wrong and often am 

[windows_chepstow]

I've used a mailshot, compliments of Sahra, which basically states that some company was fined a lot of cash when a window cleaner fell from their property and ended up brain damaged.

I've heard here, that some commercial properties operate a 'no ladder rule' to protect themselves from law suits.

Like it or not, the Working at Height Directive is law.

[JohnL]

can you guys get back to the original post and not go down the same old 'yawn' arguments.

  .  .  that trad w/c is now illegal  that is the main point of this post as I read it.

that is incorrect statement as it stands, dont try and qualify it by quoting other things by saying but I've read every page and know all the regs etc etc etc - its an incorrect statement as quoted - period!

JohnL

[macc]

Hi John. Dont worry, trad is not illegal.

The one thing i think is things need to be clarified, not in volumes of books so its clear.

Macc

[windows_chepstow]

can you guys get back to the original post and not go down the same old 'yawn' arguments.

  .  .  that trad w/c is now illegal  that is the main point of this post as I read it.

that is incorrect statement as it stands, dont try and qualify it by quoting other things by saying but I've read every page and know all the regs etc etc etc - its an incorrect statement as quoted - period!

JohnL

JohnL,

I've a copy of the Work at Height Regulations 2005 open beside me.

Read Schedule 6, Regulation 8(e) and explain to me how routinely using ladders for window cleaning is allowed?

Please pay particular attention to paragraphs 1 and 5.

[windows_chepstow]

can you guys get back to the original post and not go down the same old 'yawn' arguments.

  .  .  that trad w/c is now illegal  that is the main point of this post as I read it.

JohnL

Okay, I think the leaflet that was posted was a bit over the top with regards to residents being held responsible for their window cleaner's practices.

I doubt any court would ever find 'Mrs Jones' guilty for being partly responsible for her window cleaner falling because he used ladders and didn't comply with the Working at Height Directive.

The courts may, and have found different when it comes to larger commercial premises as the 'Facilities Manager' should be health and safety aware.

However, I also think the leaflet is correct by saying that routinely working from ladders to clean windows IS illegal; but I would have to read the leaflet to see how it was worded.

[JohnL]

Tosh

However, I also think the leaflet is correct by saying that routinely working from ladders to clean windows IS illegal; but I would have to read the leaflet to see how it was worded.


I am talking about the leaflet as posted and the leaflet did not say that, and I have to assume the leaflet was posted as written and you are adding words like '' routinely ''

I am not arguing the regs but no-where does it say   .  . that trad w/c is now illegal .  .  thats what the leaflet said and thats what I am commenting on.

Look I am not getting into an argument for the sake of it but people take words and use them for their own ends and lets face it most law and regs are based on the assumption that if its law then its up to to the individual to make themselves aware of it. That could be fun for Mrs Jones 

Please, all I am saying is that statement is incorrect and I would bet a £ to penny that other WFPers in that area would also challenge the statement .   .   .   they are the only people who comply with the law in the area     


JohnL

[windows_chepstow]

John,

I don't want to argue either.  I do enough of that with Wor Lass!

The fact is, we have a Working at Height Directive which basically states that ladders can only be used as a last resort, and then only in certain circumstances which would make routine window cleaning impracticable to use them.

Now you can view this as an assault on your human rights; it's our choice at the end of the day if we want to take risks.  Isn't it?

Or you can you use these new regulations to your advantage and get a WFP and have the 'edge' on your ladder-only competitors.

Remember also, the average bloke in the street has a gist of the working at height directive.  There's been so many stories in the media regarding working at height, it's difficult to avoid.  Stories involving £20,000 to change five light-bulbs in a church and many others regarding that 'rare specimen'; a window cleaner up a ladder!

Remember, window cleaning is a business.

Why not use the regulation to your advantage and get the edge on your ladder-only competition.

[JohnL]

from Tosh

Why not use the regulation to your advantage and get the edge on your ladder-only competition

Hey, I'm trying d**n it!            

 -  have the backpack - thanks Dave, the pole - thanks Steve, now I need a place to make water ( I live in an upstairs rented flat ) and cant find anywhere at present to make water, but I will and soon even if I have to rent something!

I only have one customer whose premises do not lend themselves to WFP out of 40+ and am really looking forward to getting going because at my age my back and legs are killing me and I see more work on the horizon - and profitable work.

regards to all my readers              

JohnL

[windows_chepstow]

( I live in an upstairs rented flat ) and cant find anywhere at present to make water, but I will and soon even if I have to rent something!JohnL

John,

The first month of using a backpack, you'll use loads of water; scrubbing the frames; worrying and rinsing loads.

Once you settle down, you'll use around three barrells per day, around 75 litres. 

I've no doubt about that, since I work with Wor Lass and clean a fair amount of houses using the backpack doing 'tops only'; generally.  I may use an extra 25 litres in the winter mind, but I need another winter's practise to find out.

I always take 100 litres out with me, but more often than not return with a full 25 litre barrel.

Why not put a post up asking if any local WFP user would supply you with pure-water?

[ducky]

tosh we do all the window cleaning in scotland for diageo we are not allowed to use ladders.on any of ther sites.can u tell me wher to get the works at hight  paper work.thanks

[windows_chepstow]

tosh we do all the window cleaning in scotland for diageo we are not allowed to use ladders.on any of ther sites.can u tell me wher to get the works at hight  paper work.thanks

Have a look here:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/index2.htm

It's the official Working at Height, Health and Safety website and there's loads of goodies there.  If you want to be health and safety compliant, you'll find everything you need to know there.

Mind you, dispite the stance I took in this post, there is a grey area concerning ladder use and when the rules are going to be enforced.

And I am not being 'holier than thou'; I use ladders if I assess the job is quicker and/or easier using them.; regardless of the rules.

[Sir Squeaky]

Piffle.

Illegal. :

I don't care how someone wants to read into some small print paperwork, it's perfectly legal to use ladders.

I was up a ladder in the middle of town yesterday and two coppers didn't bat an eyelid.
If it was against the law I'd be told to get down.

So why not drop all this malarky until it's officially anounced on the news.
"Ladders are now banned"
"Anyone using them faces a fine"

Until I hear that (which I'm sure I won't) I'm not breaking the law.
Anyone who says otherwise is trying to make themselves feel superior for having a pole.

End of.

Rog.

[poleman]

I real don’t think this window cleaner has done him self any favors, as marketing does not work on the negative ticket, it just does not work as seen by the person that posted, people don’t like being told what to do, I have done marketing courses and have a good understanding of this. The best way is to be sublimely and make them work it for them self, the sledge hammer approach never works.     
 
Andy

[windows_chepstow]

Piffle.

Illegal. :

I don't care how someone wants to read into some small print paperwork, it's perfectly legal to use ladders.



I was up a ladder in the middle of town yesterday and two coppers didn't bat an eyelid.
If it was against the law I'd be told to get down.

So why not drop all this malarky until it's officially anounced on the news.
"Ladders are now banned"
"Anyone using them faces a fine"

Until I hear that (which I'm sure I won't) I'm not breaking the law.
Anyone who says otherwise is trying to make themselves feel superior for having a pole.

End of.

Rog.

Roger, it's not small print; it's the rules.  (Groan) Okay I'll dig 'em out and start quoting.  (Groan again)  In fact no I won't, it'll involve too much typing; you'll have to read them, but I will quote one small part.

From the Working at Height Directive 2005

A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by - (a) securing the stiles at or near their uppor or lower ends; (b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or (c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness.

Roger, you don't even have rubber feet on your ladders.  They've worn away to the bent aluminium.

How can you possibly comply with the rules?  The short excerpt I've typed points out how you can use ladders, but before that, it basically says ladders are a last resort after all other practical possibilities have been ruled out.

And you quote 'two coppers', who've probably got more interest in criminals or road tax evaders than in window cleaners as your 'right within the rules' to use ladders. 

They were probably 'plastic coppers' anyway; the community support ossifers who don't know their arse from their elbow.

And it has been on the news too, but you were probably watching Eastenders or Big Brother or something.

You make me larf, mate.

[Sir Squeaky]

They were probably 'plastic coppers' anyway; the community support ossifers who don't know their arse from their elbow.

Nope, proper police mate.

And it has been on the news too, but you were probably watching Eastenders or Big Brother or something.

No it hasn't.
Don't you think at least one of my 200 or so customers might have mentioned it....? :

It would be a main headline, and front page of the papers.
It would affect half a million people or more who use ladders.

You must have been watching some Dutch news or something on some dodgy satellite channel.