[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

As already quoted - "That old chestnut!!!"

STOP ARGUEING OVER LADDERS, LAW OR POLES.  JUST GET ON WITH IT!!!!!!!!

However, my experiences:

Since going over to WFP. The local Authority Window Cleaning contractor, who has been doing the Council and Housing association offices for donkeys years, approached me and asked if I would do the tops of some of his work.  He admited that he had experienced "Hasstle" from the authorities and agreed to give WFP a try.  Weve known each other for years and get on honestly.  He has been in the business since 1968 and has no intention of purchasing WFP gear.  His son and another chap work for him and do most of the work.

Maybe there are other contractors out there who don't want to go WFP but might consider sub contracting a WFP in this way.

David

[AuRavelling79]

You can't put the genie back in the bottle. WFP is here to stay and slowly but surely folk will have to get used to the fact.

A question I ask any prospective customer who want windows done off a ladder is "Do you want to risk having me falling off ladders on your property and being uninsured because I have chosen to go against the WAH regulations?"

And squeaky - those coppers are interested in criminal matters not in breaches of civil law. Breaking the WAHD is a civil matter not a criminal one.

[beefy]

the point seems to be missed here, its not wether this or thats illegal- we will all make our own choice& i doubt anyons really gonna get done. BUT we do a good job ,were allowed to wander about peoples houses/gardens. these mugs are ripping the elderly & need sorting at least a localpaper spread to neg what their saying, 
 

[DASERVICES]

  I just received a package from the HSE regarding ladder safety, how they word
  it is it is up to you to do a risk assesment when using ladders. The way I see
  it if it not safe using the ladders then you cannot use them. On my round
  every house I do there are windows where it could be deemed as unsafe
  to use ladders even though the risk may be minimal.

  Interesting the HSE have now included can you use WFP as a list of
  directives :-

   http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm

  Doug

[robbie14000]

Hi guys and girls

A very interesting subject and good to hear different views.
I worked in H&S(council) for over 6 years before setting up my own cleaning company.
The laws are a very gray area and the HSE will not be drawn (as yet)on the above subject.
I use both trad and WFP depending on the job in hand.
 WFP - Difficult to pole over large ledges and crap on old wooden windows.
I still carry our regular reviews for the council and have it on good authority that traditional window cleaning will be banned within 1-2 years.
There are still lots of accidents occuring and mostly at a lower level rather than high levels.
I try and keep various types of risk assessments for different jobs (generic) as it would be impossible to do a risk asessment on every propery.

I still reguarly see wc walking on ledges and standing on sills.

these are the people that give our industry a bad name but all will change when HSE start to prosecute window cleaners that flout the laws(fines in the region of £4,000 have been mentioned.
It,s not worth dying for at any cost
Good luck all.

Robbie - Clearshine - Harrogate

[Richy L]

i was speaking to a customer today and her son is a H&S inspector.

I told her last time i called that there might be a law passed meaning working off ladders to clean windows would be illegal. She talked to her son about it and he said it was perfectly legal to clean window off a ladder and there was no law in the pipe line either

[windows_chepstow]

i was speaking to a customer today and her son is a H&S inspector.

I told her last time i called that there might be a law passed meaning working off ladders to clean windows would be illegal. She talked to her son about it and he said it was perfectly legal to clean window off a ladder and there was no law in the pipe line either

Anecdotal evidence is the worst type of 'blabber' I know.  In the army, stuff like this is referred to as 'NAAFI bar talk'.

Why not read the rules, understand what they say; then make an informed opinion that's based not on hearsay.

There's no grey areas, not really.

If anyone wishes to start a new thread to discuss the rules, point by point, as I have done before with Philip Hanson (I lost, but gained a better understanding), I'd be more than happy to chew-the-fat over them.

[Ian_Giles]

these threads always degenerate to this don't they?

However, without getting too involved in the debate; in 99% of situations a ladder isn't needed, or if it is it is usually for access.
I'm not talking about shopping Malls and the like, they can be the exception of course, but in the main, WFP is practical in almost all situations, I haven't had to climbe my extention ladder to clean windows in well over 12 months, probably more than that, and I do plenty of domestic as well as commercial accounts.

Given that there is, in almost all situations a viable alternative to ladders, how long do you think it is going to take those that make the rules to realise that, and ban the use of window cleaning of ladders in all bu the most exceptional circumstances??

H & S want to reduce accidents off ladder don't they?
The less that people work off ladders, the less chance there is of ladder related accidents.
They can now reduce that risk by virtually eliminating ladders for window cleaning at least...You can moan all you like, but the end result is inevitable.

At some point in the future use of ladders for window cleaning will be banned, and it won't be that far away either.

And it won't be hard to prosecute those who flout the new regs either, video cameras are an effective form of proof.

As more and more window cleaners make the change to WFP, enforcing those regs will become easier.

The writing is on the wall, and its writ big 


Ian

[rosskesava]

The writing is on the wall, and its writ big 

Sorry Ian but where is it written?

I'm not neccessarily disagreeing but that is a bold statement to make.

I think it's best to keep with what is current law and deal with what is. Provided a risk assesment has been done and the method of working when using ladders complies with current law, then ladders can be used.

Also, from another post in this thread, the arguement that if a w/c uses ladders to do the windows of a customers house and if he falls he can then sue (the word ought really be 'prosecute' as 'sue' relates to civil law) the house owner is a pile of codswallop. So the w/c 'sues' the householder because, he, the w/c, failed to ensure his own safety? Dream on.

There is a huge legal difference between a householder and a business and for the life of me where do some get their information? So a CORGI registered plumber can blow up your house and it's your fault for not knowing all the laws and was his work safely carried out. Yeah, sure.

I do agree that maybe 99% of windows can be done with wfp but that does not take into account that wfp may not be the best method for each percent.

As an example, and I give only one but there are others, doing the windows wfp on a 1st floor when the windows of the ground floor are either open or are leaky could create a situation where the owner of the ground floor may have a claim for the water damage done by wfp user.

The H & S have taken into account that the wheels of business, big and little,  must still turn and that a householder is accepted as expecting not only a reasonable job done, but that the carrying out of that job of work does not create further problems.

To ban ladders would be a big, big, step and apart from the ramblings of those with a vested interest, i.e. - the wfp companies, I have not read one official statement that gives an indication that in the future ladders will be banned. I've read loads of heresay, but no actual supported factual readable comment by those who make new laws.

I've heard loads of ' I went to a secret meeting and if you knew what is planned .... you would be shocked' type comments but not ONE official.

I do not mean to provoke an arguement but when confusions rains down, stick to what is instead of what may be or what may not be, and the facts as they are today. There has been no official statement by the H & S that in the future, ladders will be banned. Further restrictions on usage, maybe or maybe not, but not banning them.

Also, and sorry to harp on, if they were to be banned doesn't anyone think they'd be saying right now that within 10 years ladders will be illegal. The WAHD was publicised well in advance wasn't it? So why no word on banning ladders?

Cheers

[Sir Squeaky]

Well said Ross.

I'll say no more, you've covered it.

[*foxman]

Good post Ross.

There are also a number of companies who refuse their windows being cleaned by WFP. Their reasons being - it doesn't come up as good AND it's very enviormentaly unfriendly! esp with the drought order kicking in, in some areas.

[rosskesava]

Good post Ross.

There are also a number of companies who refuse their windows being cleaned by WFP. .

How true is that. We use wfp but being a business that can use both has earnt us a bomb.

I don't know if what I posted was good or not, I just like facts. I hope I gave reason and a balanced veiw point.

Cheers anyway.

[JohnL]

HSE equals Civil Servants + Insurance Companies + nanny state supporters + WFP manufacturers, result - Ladder Bans!

Why do the WFP boys keep banging on so, is it self justification or is there something more sinister - does purified water turn you into an alien, was this what happened at Roswell, is a new clan emerging, or is it a new religion, ban ladders and be saved!

Come to us my son and join the brethren, your pole awaits and you will be annointed with the water of life and live for ever more with tennis elbow, repetitive whatsit syndrome, bad backs, ricked necks, sleepless nights - please saviour let my TDS be OK in the morning  .  .  .  oh dear!

                


it must be late and b****y hot, all this legislation is making my head boil - or is it just the heat?   

JohnL

[JohnL]

  .  .  and how come every WFPer says they still use ladders for certain jobs

my heads done in now   

JohnL

[Paul Coleman]

  .  .  and how come every WFPer says they still use ladders for certain jobs

my heads done in now   

JohnL

If you can find a decent enough reason for not using WFP on a particular job, my understanding is that it's OK to use a ladder - providing you adhere to the regs about how to use them (secure at top OR secure at bottom OR any other equally effective method) AND carry out a risk assessment prior to starting the job.

[rosskesava]

Hi The Shiner

Dead right. 

[Ian_Giles]

All the indicators are that in most situations ladders for window cleaning will be banned at some point in the future.

There will always be soome situations where if the windows are to be cleaned then they must be done of a ladder or some other form of direct access.

I have never said that ladders will be made illegal, thats quite preposturous of course, but where window cleaning is concerned, the use of ladders in most situations can be eliminated.
Setting up with WFP isn't expensive, we are talking no more than a grand to get set up, as a business cost, in real terms that is peanuts.
So cost will not be an issue to the likes of H & S, whereas it would be if it meant the hiring of scaffold or cherry pickers, plus the fact that things like cherry pickers can hardly be used for access to upstairs windows on a 3 bed semi can they?
And the cost would be quite riduculous.

H & S are continually looking for ways to reduce risk, and you can squawk all you like, but in the majority of situations a ladder is no longer needed to clean windows to a good standard.
That isn't guesswork or hearsay, that is a fact.

Nobody is going to ban ladders outright, but H & S will have to be downright stupid not to see that they will be able to virtually eliminate the use of ladders with regards to window cleaning.

Further pressure will mount from insurance companies as they wriggle out of paying up for a claim...which they will do now as the regs currently stand.
Accidents off ladders will continue to make headlines, safety comparisons will continually be made between ladders and WFP.

It is always possible to reduce risk, they will keep taking little steps, they won't take a big step, but there is always another step that can be taken.

Don't get me wrong, I may well sound like I want it to happen, I don't, I personally resent the interference of Government in every nook and crannie of our lives.
Climbing a ladder is less dangerous than driving a car, I'll bet more window cleaners get killed in car accidents than do by falling of a ladder.

When I first came onto this forum, the majority of posts were about trad window cleaning, by a long way, that situation has changed hasn't it?
Most posts now are regarding WFP.
The take up of WFP has been enormous, far greater than I personally expected, and if anything it is accelerating.

All of these things are what I consider to be the writing writ big upon the wall, it's all around you.
As Malc has said, the Genie is out of the bottle now...

Ian

[dai]

here aTre also a number of companies who refuse their windows being cleaned by WFP. .

This may be the case, but all commecial premises must provide safe access for window cleaning by law Dai

[dai]

here aTre also a number of companies who refuse their windows being cleaned by WFP. .

This may be the case, but all commecial premises must provide safe access for window cleaning by law Dai

[mbredalert]

Hi all,

Just a quick note to inform all you trad w/c out there, i visit my grandparents in Skewen, Nr Neath south wales on a wekly basis to do small jobs for them and do a bit of cleaning for them which does include windows every 2 weeks.

I went over there yesterday and they showed me a leaflet from a WFP cleaner that stated that trad w/c is now illegal and that they are the only people who comply with the law in the area. It went on to say that homeowners are now liable if a trad w/c falls while on there premises.

Has anybody heard of this type of marketing, if they have is it just aimed towards the elderly. needless to say that i will answer the door next week when they come touting.

regards
wayne

Yes, hello.
I think that I am the w/c you are talking about.
I am going to put my letter that I sent to all my 400 happy customers for all to see.
This letter was sent out in Nov 2005, after we had purchased a wfp system.
I'm sorry that you interpreted it so harshly.
I thought is was a totally reasonable and informative letter for my customers. It was definately not intended as a scare tactic, that is not how we run our business that has been established for 20 years. If that was the case we would not have so many happy customers. We are always willing to sort out any legitamate problems. Thank you.

Dear Customer,

We are changing the way we clean your windows!
I would like to assure you that we are commited to providing a quality service to you, as we have been doing for 20 years.

Due to new health and safety regulations called Work At Height Regulations, we now are obligated to use poles from the ground that reach up to high windows. We are not allowed to use ladders where there are safer alternatives for work at height. We are allowed to use ladders where there is no other alternative, but with someone standing at the bottom. While we do not totally agree with these new laws we will be changing the way we work.

We will be using totally purified water, pumped up water fed poles. This type of system has been around for a while, being used mainly on commercial and industrial applications. The method of purification is very important, it needs to be 100% pure otherwise it will leave spots on the glass. The system we will be using is 100% pure, and we will be able to demonstrate this to you. There is no need to dry the window because the are no residues in the water. We have fully tested it on our own windows, and are very happy with the results. We wash all the window and all the frames, and sills. What I will say, is that the first clean with this method may leave some spots on the glass. This is because of an accumilation of dirt in the frames and residues of soap. After the second and third cleans we will be ok regarding that.

No one likes change, but please, please be patient with this system (and us!), because we value your custom very much. This is our livelihood, we are professionals. As we said earlier, we are commited to continuing to provide a quality service to you. Any comments are always appreciated.

See you soon!