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STEVE-UK

  • Posts: 1609
Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« on: May 10, 2019, 05:41:31 pm »
Anyone gone VAT registered, who has a large amount of Managing agents as clients,

Did you add the VAT to the job price, if so,  did you loose any work as managing agents cannot claim the VAT back, or simply swallow the VAT yourself?

Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2019, 05:45:56 pm »
Yes !!

Thank god I had some because we had a large residential base so the first year when we paid 11% VAT I could charge them 20% to offset things

No one batted an eye at this - remember they just offset it on their return and in fact going forward it became easier with biz2biz work - charging what I would before the vat reg. then adding the 20%

you'll be fine !

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2019, 09:46:42 pm »
Correct,

well in an ideal world I'd rather not be paying the VAT man 20% of everything I do !!

we used the flat rate year to really push for more commercial stuff - so now its about 40% commercial 60% residential - which was a big leap for us - the benefit has been lots more pressure cleaning/brick cleaning works and commercial gutter clearing which are in the £X,XXX's rather than hundreds

at the end of the flat rate we did a price increase to residential works of 20%  and when quoting s/f/g - gutter clearing - or one off works I just got into the habit of putting my usual price then putting + VAT on the quote

In short - it can be painful to start but you get used to it and you can claim a bit back on purchases and fuel.

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2019, 09:06:40 am »
We've had a busy few months recently plenty of new customers retained  at the verge on VAT which I'm assuming you are as well

So I shall give you my terminology on vat.
The way I see it in simple terms is this. If most of your client base cannot claim the VAT back i.e. domestic etc It basically becomes harder and you can't get around it.

 two options
1) up your prices to acomodate the hit.
2) do not up your prices and pay duty on turnover

the above option 1 is probably the route to go. If you're priced reasonably and you haven't incrased your prices for a while you could probably get away with it with probably only a handful of cancellations. But would you be pricing yourself out the market just a little bit?

Which leads to option 2
Where do you wish to take the business? Because if you intend to grow further you need to be competitive. If you're doing the majority of the work yourself with some occasional help and hitting the VAT threshold I would say option one is for you. You will charge a bit more and you will do the majority of the work yourself your customers know you're the business owner will definitely always go the extra mile in communication and in every aspect, but it's different if you're employing
Essentially you need to look at it purely as financial
Turnover goal even if it's the same as you're doing but paying the vat from employees Manpower.

Option 2 your chasing profit and will suit if you are mass marketing in any way. You're looking to keep your employees busy and make a profit excluding VAT and excluding daily salary and running costs of the vehicle.

So I think breaking the threshold and not upping your prices is essential that you have a very good small team around you first. You wouldn't up your prices to keep them busy to keep them producing a stable profit. Or You would up your prices but you may not have a stable profit as previously
Basically you compete by keeping your prices competitive while still being able to make a profit.

If look at it this way you're turning over 84999. Everything's happy you're paying expenses and you walking away with a lovely profit.
You go over by 1 pound and now £17,000 duty is due which leaves you with 68000 before your expenses! You'll have a little bit back on VAT but ultimately this is horrible and it's definitely a challenge to get around.

Imo is your van(s) able to hit a competitive day rate relative to most? If the answer is yes decide how big you want to be and then that should reflect on which option you take. You take the hit and grow fast keeping as much Manpower around you as possible or you up your prices and grow slowly
Or you could do a mixture of both up some of the really low prices if you have them. Take a hit on the rest to keep your work stable.

I kind of put the pieces together from a lovely chap who works in Sussex and doesn't currently frequent the forum wonder who that could be! ;D :o ???

Anyhow I think you should closely monitor your turnover every week every month. And prepare diligently I'm ready for the challenge I hope you are as well. ( think I'll go on holiday first though lol because I probably never get one again chasing that 20%) ;D




Stoots

  • Posts: 6211
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2019, 10:12:46 am »
Is it worth the stress of going over and going large for a few more quid in your pocket though.

You can make a great profit margin and a nice life by just staying under.

Anyone can do the maths.

Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2019, 10:49:29 am »
Is it worth the stress of going over and going large for a few more quid in your pocket though.

You can make a great profit margin and a nice life by just staying under.

Anyone can do the maths.

Certainly something which many of us need to consider as at that point you have a serious commitment to find that extra 20% which ever way you look at it.

One problem tho Gomo with keeping things as is not sure if you heard recently the government were considering lowering the threshold dramatically to around wasn't it £20,000? but then they froze it for 2 years this was around a year ago.

it would literally force even startups onto VAT in any business.So even if you keep things below it may just be coming soon regardless. 

STEVE-UK

  • Posts: 1609
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2019, 11:09:00 am »
Thanks for the responses guys, some great points made!

I currently operate on a franchise basis and researching what Crystal has just mentioned,  Re - lowering VAT rate thresholds

VAT reducing to £20k - this will affect all my franchisees, however, i don't think this will be enforced, but you never know!

Additionally, if we remain in the EU, VAT threshold could reduce to £76k, this could affect some of my franchisees, this is highly likely IMO

Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2019, 01:14:09 pm »
Horses for courses....

you say is it worth it for the 'little' extra - what do you call a little ? - franchise a side, once you break through the vat barrier ( its too low now IMO ) you go for it, not just tweak over the line - also your role has to change and you either embrace that or remain small - my role involves NO CLEANING at all - I quote, I arrange access machines, I do a bit of paperwork - I pop down and look at how some of the large jobs are going - if I condensed all that it MAY mean I 'work' 3 to 4 hours a day - just for a 'little' more than I would as if I were on the glass - it also means like last year due to illness everything carries on - no work lost ( it may not have expanded, but we didn't lose out )

the biggest  thing being 1 or 2 man is if you are unable to carry out work there is no income and the chance you will lose the work
so sometimes you have to look at things differently

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

KS Cleaning

  • Posts: 3955
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2019, 02:02:17 pm »
Is it worth the stress of going over and going large for a few more quid in your pocket though.

You can make a great profit margin and a nice life by just staying under.

Anyone can do the maths.

Certainly something which many of us need to consider as at that point you have a serious commitment to find that extra 20% which ever way you look at it.

One problem tho Gomo with keeping things as is not sure if you heard recently the government were considering lowering the threshold dramatically to around wasn't it £20,000? but then they froze it for 2 years this was around a year ago.

it would literally force even startups onto VAT in any business.So even if you keep things below it may just be coming soon regardless.
Correct, and if and when it gets lowered all the accountants can start rubbing their hands at the prospect of the extra work it will bring in, in all probability demand will probably outstrip supply which means they can all but name their price😢

Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2019, 03:46:05 pm »
All of this is pure speculation at this time we will all have to wait and see what happens , but once you get to the vat limit I agree you have to go way over the limit or it’s not worth it you are better off being just below and not having the hassle, just sell off the least paying work and keep the more profitable less man power needed and less expenses

Stoots

  • Posts: 6211
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2019, 04:16:29 pm »
Horses for courses....

you say is it worth it for the 'little' extra - what do you call a little ? - franchise a side, once you break through the vat barrier ( its too low now IMO ) you go for it, not just tweak over the line - also your role has to change and you either embrace that or remain small - my role involves NO CLEANING at all - I quote, I arrange access machines, I do a bit of paperwork - I pop down and look at how some of the large jobs are going - if I condensed all that it MAY mean I 'work' 3 to 4 hours a day - just for a 'little' more than I would as if I were on the glass - it also means like last year due to illness everything carries on - no work lost ( it may not have expanded, but we didn't lose out )

the biggest  thing being 1 or 2 man is if you are unable to carry out work there is no income and the chance you will lose the work
so sometimes you have to look at things differently

Darran

Well if I had one full time guy doing 50k a year I could do 30k a year.

I would probably work 3 days a week on the glass for that.

So it's a balance thing, would I want to have to have 200k turnover and 5 staff to be off the tools completely but have the added stress of more Staff and vans etc for probably not that much more profit.

Or would I say you know that's enough money for me, gives me a decent income for minimum fuss

Now I realise you can apply this to any level of business  a sole trader could say the same.

I guess it comes down to how much money you want vs how much stress and work you are prepared to go through to achieve it.

Having one employee or perhaps 2 part timers would work better for flexibility reasons and staying just under vat seems like a good compromise to me.

But of course like I said everyone can do the math for themselves and decide what works for them.

But like you say VAT threshold isn't something you can play at you really have to go through it fast and  finding an extra 20k+ of work almost instaly I can imagine would be difficult expensive and extremely nerve racking.

Ooooooog

  • Posts: 1083
Re: Effects of going VAT registered - Managing agents
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2019, 04:31:31 pm »
You need to have a long term plan.
Don’t forget growth incurs costs too.