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dd

  • Posts: 2569
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2019, 05:12:06 pm »
Someone should start a thread "Rebates and allowances your entitled to"...

Or "how to over-complicate the world's most simple business and pay for it" ;D
Things are more complex if you are a Ltd Company (I am not) and I believe you have to use a chartered accountant.

As a sole trader I do my own accounts and tax return online.

֍Winp®oClean֍

  • Posts: 1688
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 05:42:56 pm »
Someone should start a thread "Rebates and allowances your entitled to"...

Or "how to over-complicate the world's most simple business and pay for it" ;D
Things are more complex if you are a Ltd Company (I am not) and I believe you have to use a chartered accountant.

As a sole trader I do my own accounts and tax return online.

Indeed, my point exactly!! :)
Comfortably Numb!

Stoots

  • Posts: 6212
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 05:58:48 pm »
Someone should start a thread "Rebates and allowances your entitled to"...

Or "how to over-complicate the world's most simple business and pay for it" ;D
Things are more complex if you are a Ltd Company (I am not) and I believe you have to use a chartered accountant.

As a sole trader I do my own accounts and tax return online.


Nope no need to be chartered.

I used to do my own as a sole trader but cant be bothered learning all the ins and out of Ltd company returns

TomCrowther

  • Posts: 1965
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 06:24:51 pm »
£3,500 is massively overcharging you mate. My guy does exactly what yours does, is very proactive on the advice and does payroll for two people, all year end stuff, instant replies to mails and questions and several meetings a year. He advised me to sell my sole trader business to my Ltd Co which was a brilliant move, saved me ££££'s. I guess its a but like us pricing jobs. He is charging what he thinks he is worth but you can get a very similar job done for a third of the price.
I had another business with 80 staff and the charges were only a little more than yours.

dd

  • Posts: 2569
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2019, 06:27:05 pm »
Someone who went Ltd told me they had to use a chartered accountant. Never looked in to it personally as I like to keep things simple. He reckoned he saved a lot in tax though so it was worthwhile for him.

Shrek

  • Posts: 3931
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2019, 06:33:51 pm »
I think Marc feels obliged to stay with them as they helped him with his f@cKup years ago.... now they’re taking advantage of the situation

cleaniac

Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2019, 12:43:39 pm »
No i'm not obliged to stay with them, i have indeed looked at other like for like comparisons. There isn't much in it, the cheapest I found for another company doing exactly what mine did was around £700 less, and yes ok there are cheaper ones I can use, but i'm sure i could find a cheaper one, and then find someone cheaper than that, and just go down an ever increasing cycle of finding the cheapest accountant like many of you seem to seek, forgetting the fact that its all tax deductible, and the correct accountant will cover all avenues of taxation legality and outcome and you have to weigh up whats best for your goals, and mine are to grow into a big company eventually, much like Lee Pryor but at a slower rate. I will also be seeking investment into my business ideas and specific processes for my business, and this firm can realise that for me through partnerships, investments and capital injection from investors. I have a wonderful case study to use now, and he has demonstrated to all on this forum what can be done with a cash injection and the right strategy.

Many of you on here clearly think i'm crazy, with my next date system on my bills (which work perfectly i hasten to add) and my focus on  having the right sort of people working for & advising my business instead of buying the latest hose reel, or lightest pole, or flashiest pump controller. To me spending a fair amount on money on business advice, taxation advice, and doing things the correct way with a paperwork trial is more important, than these other trivial mundane matters.

For example, going back to transfer of sole trader to ltd company status. Many  of you who did this probably thought its a case of just registering as ltd company and then trading from a set date as ltd.. and on the surface that is true..it is that simple. But there are hidden tax ramifications for doing it if you don't do it correctly. One of which is the personal tax liability you can set for yourself should and investigation into your affairs arise. if its not done the correct way, it can ruin your chances and lend you to be paying back a debt that is huge.

Say Mr Jones (sole trader) has a window cleaning business of 30k a year, and over the last 6 years his personal tax returns say he made a profit of around £144k over that period. Taking for example the amortisation of goodwill value over 6 years, to value the business the figure works out to be  valued at £50k.  Now of course goodwill is very subjective, and will vary from one person calculating it to the other, but say its HMRC asking about your tax affairs and the transfer of the business from your termination of sole trader status, to that of your ltd company ( it does happen) they will do the calculations that the sole trader business was worth £x at the time of transfer to the company, and will send you a personal tax bill for the value of that transfer as income, as you effectively sold the goodwill to the company when you became a director, and it will owe you on the DL account.

My accountants have basically handled the above, legally, through the correct channels and means at the most efficient tax saving point possible and saved me from a fairly substantial personal tax bill, to a rebate with marginal corporation tax to pay.

Now of course, i could have just started trading as LTD and done nothing in terms of the transfer, and probably be ok, and most people do this with little or no thought about it, until an investigation pops up into the way you handle your affairs..problem time..

and of course in everything there is always someone cheaper.. something we can all relate to when we are asked to quote by others... ::)roll

Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2019, 01:29:43 pm »
Someone should start a thread "Rebates and allowances your entitled to"...

Well,start one then.  ::)roll

My fees are £99 a month (less than 1.2K a year for the thick ;D). For that I get all payroll services, VAT, corporation tax, personal tax and any advice I require for my Ltd company. They save me a fortune. Accountancy fees come off the final total too, so whats the worry. Tho 3.6K is a bit steep I admit.

Stoots

  • Posts: 6212
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2019, 05:15:48 pm »
No i'm not obliged to stay with them, i have indeed looked at other like for like comparisons. There isn't much in it, the cheapest I found for another company doing exactly what mine did was around £700 less, and yes ok there are cheaper ones I can use, but i'm sure i could find a cheaper one, and then find someone cheaper than that, and just go down an ever increasing cycle of finding the cheapest accountant like many of you seem to seek, forgetting the fact that its all tax deductible, and the correct accountant will cover all avenues of taxation legality and outcome and you have to weigh up whats best for your goals, and mine are to grow into a big company eventually, much like Lee Pryor but at a slower rate. I will also be seeking investment into my business ideas and specific processes for my business, and this firm can realise that for me through partnerships, investments and capital injection from investors. I have a wonderful case study to use now, and he has demonstrated to all on this forum what can be done with a cash injection and the right strategy.

Many of you on here clearly think i'm crazy, with my next date system on my bills (which work perfectly i hasten to add) and my focus on  having the right sort of people working for & advising my business instead of buying the latest hose reel, or lightest pole, or flashiest pump controller. To me spending a fair amount on money on business advice, taxation advice, and doing things the correct way with a paperwork trial is more important, than these other trivial mundane matters.

For example, going back to transfer of sole trader to ltd company status. Many  of you who did this probably thought its a case of just registering as ltd company and then trading from a set date as ltd.. and on the surface that is true..it is that simple. But there are hidden tax ramifications for doing it if you don't do it correctly. One of which is the personal tax liability you can set for yourself should and investigation into your affairs arise. if its not done the correct way, it can ruin your chances and lend you to be paying back a debt that is huge.

Say Mr Jones (sole trader) has a window cleaning business of 30k a year, and over the last 6 years his personal tax returns say he made a profit of around £144k over that period. Taking for example the amortisation of goodwill value over 6 years, to value the business the figure works out to be  valued at £50k.  Now of course goodwill is very subjective, and will vary from one person calculating it to the other, but say its HMRC asking about your tax affairs and the transfer of the business from your termination of sole trader status, to that of your ltd company ( it does happen) they will do the calculations that the sole trader business was worth £x at the time of transfer to the company, and will send you a personal tax bill for the value of that transfer as income, as you effectively sold the goodwill to the company when you became a director, and it will owe you on the DL account.

My accountants have basically handled the above, legally, through the correct channels and means at the most efficient tax saving point possible and saved me from a fairly substantial personal tax bill, to a rebate with marginal corporation tax to pay.

Now of course, i could have just started trading as LTD and done nothing in terms of the transfer, and probably be ok, and most people do this with little or no thought about it, until an investigation pops up into the way you handle your affairs..problem time..

and of course in everything there is always someone cheaper.. something we can all relate to when we are asked to quote by others... ::)roll


Most of that went over my head tbh  :D

when i went ltd i just started trading as ltd.

So i started trading 12th june this (tax) year....so from april 6th to 12th june i was a sole trader and this profit will be added to my salary i take from my ltd co at the end of the year for my self assesment.

so why did you need to transfer goodwill to the ltd company ?

i thought you cant claim goodwill as an expense? so if i bought a round i cant claim it as an expense against tax as its goodwill........so if thats the case it would be worth zero so therefore no DL account?

all sounds very complicated, and how can hrmc make you pay back money that was never received, are you saying that you sold your business to the ltd co and now it owes you on the DL account?

lol ive no idea what you did or why but you obviously know a lot more than me

Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2019, 05:22:22 pm »
Not sure about goodwill

But assets such as equipment and vans are an issue as your effectively selling them to the limited company

Not a major issue for one man setup but transfers need to be done correctly

As others have said 3.5k is a hell of a price - bearing in mind ALL Accountants have a disclaimer that they act on your info and are not responsible if you are investigated

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

Slacky

  • Posts: 8282
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2019, 05:25:09 pm »
No i'm not obliged to stay with them, i have indeed looked at other like for like comparisons. There isn't much in it, the cheapest I found for another company doing exactly what mine did was around £700 less, and yes ok there are cheaper ones I can use, but i'm sure i could find a cheaper one, and then find someone cheaper than that, and just go down an ever increasing cycle of finding the cheapest accountant like many of you seem to seek, forgetting the fact that its all tax deductible, and the correct accountant will cover all avenues of taxation legality and outcome and you have to weigh up whats best for your goals, and mine are to grow into a big company eventually, much like Lee Pryor but at a slower rate. I will also be seeking investment into my business ideas and specific processes for my business, and this firm can realise that for me through partnerships, investments and capital injection from investors. I have a wonderful case study to use now, and he has demonstrated to all on this forum what can be done with a cash injection and the right strategy.

Many of you on here clearly think i'm crazy, with my next date system on my bills (which work perfectly i hasten to add) and my focus on  having the right sort of people working for & advising my business instead of buying the latest hose reel, or lightest pole, or flashiest pump controller. To me spending a fair amount on money on business advice, taxation advice, and doing things the correct way with a paperwork trial is more important, than these other trivial mundane matters.

For example, going back to transfer of sole trader to ltd company status. Many  of you who did this probably thought its a case of just registering as ltd company and then trading from a set date as ltd.. and on the surface that is true..it is that simple. But there are hidden tax ramifications for doing it if you don't do it correctly. One of which is the personal tax liability you can set for yourself should and investigation into your affairs arise. if its not done the correct way, it can ruin your chances and lend you to be paying back a debt that is huge.

Say Mr Jones (sole trader) has a window cleaning business of 30k a year, and over the last 6 years his personal tax returns say he made a profit of around £144k over that period. Taking for example the amortisation of goodwill value over 6 years, to value the business the figure works out to be  valued at £50k.  Now of course goodwill is very subjective, and will vary from one person calculating it to the other, but say its HMRC asking about your tax affairs and the transfer of the business from your termination of sole trader status, to that of your ltd company ( it does happen) they will do the calculations that the sole trader business was worth £x at the time of transfer to the company, and will send you a personal tax bill for the value of that transfer as income, as you effectively sold the goodwill to the company when you became a director, and it will owe you on the DL account.

My accountants have basically handled the above, legally, through the correct channels and means at the most efficient tax saving point possible and saved me from a fairly substantial personal tax bill, to a rebate with marginal corporation tax to pay.

Now of course, i could have just started trading as LTD and done nothing in terms of the transfer, and probably be ok, and most people do this with little or no thought about it, until an investigation pops up into the way you handle your affairs..problem time..

and of course in everything there is always someone cheaper.. something we can all relate to when we are asked to quote by others... ::)roll

TLDR..

Stoots

  • Posts: 6212
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2019, 05:29:01 pm »
Not sure about goodwill

But assets such as equipment and vans are an issue as your effectively selling them to the limited company

Not a major issue for one man setup but transfers need to be done correctly

As others have said 3.5k is a hell of a price - bearing in mind ALL Accountants have a disclaimer that they act on your info and are not responsible if you are investigated

Darran


oh yeh assets etc of course

but my understanding is goodwill cant be sold, or it can be sold but it cant be claimed as an expense so i can sell a round as a sole trader and have to declare it as income but someone else buying it cant claim it as an expense.

Therefore unless its different for Ltd companys it seems logical that it was given to the Ltd co not sold.


Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2019, 05:31:45 pm »
I believe that to be correct - it was never taken into account on our changeover only solid figures

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

֍Winp®oClean֍

  • Posts: 1688
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2019, 07:03:30 pm »
Not sure about goodwill

But assets such as equipment and vans are an issue as your effectively selling them to the limited company

Not a major issue for one man setup but transfers need to be done correctly

As others have said 3.5k is a hell of a price - bearing in mind ALL Accountants have a disclaimer that they act on your info and are not responsible if you are investigated

Darran


oh yeh assets etc of course

but my understanding is goodwill cant be sold, or it can be sold but it cant be claimed as an expense so i can sell a round as a sole trader and have to declare it as income but someone else buying it cant claim it as an expense.

Therefore unless its different for Ltd companys it seems logical that it was given to the Ltd co not sold.

That certainly was the case unless it has recently changed.
Comfortably Numb!

P @ F

  • Posts: 6319
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2019, 08:53:50 pm »
Fookin hell ..............I can build a diesel heater from nothing , but I really dont have a clue what the hell you lot are on about  ;D ;D ;D
I'm happy cleaning windows for 12 months , giving my accountant all my receipts and £258 and getting on with the next 12 , I'm too old for this poope  ;D
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

John Mart

Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2019, 02:30:11 pm »
I’ve never attempted doing it myself I’ve always been advised to go through an accountant and always have done,surely it can’t be that hard if you input the figures etc it’s suoposed to be straight forward and calculates it for you the accountant is a safe guard I know but I’ve never paid over 500 odd quid before.

I did self assesment for the first time last year as I was like you and doing all the donkey work myself anyway- before handing accountant my "prepared" accounts. Knocking on 500 smackers for them to input my figures online. Anyhow, it took me about an hour after setting it all up online and that's with double checking everything. Couldn't believe how easy it was. You can even see your previous submissions from your accountant and follow them as a guide- but it's pretty straight forward. 👍
I've done my own for 30 years. It's a doddle as long as you have the data. 30 minutes if that. I used an accountant one year and nearly ended in court as he put in a bill for £700 for some unsolicited advice I never took. Our bill this year for filing our company return was about £800. It included some advice on type B shares to avoid some tax liabilities.

Frankybadboy

  • Posts: 9022
Re: Accountants fees
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2019, 08:24:16 pm »
sole trader with all the advise i want and i pay £150  and same price when i employed

when i did employ and she done the payroll it was £2 for a  weekly a slip or £5 for  a monthly one,she told me to have a monthly one lol

she all so sorted out all my last 3 years account for my accident claim at a very small cost i think £30

is she to dear  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D