[Splash & dash]

To quote you there bleach machines are illegal, no they are not , mixing anything with bleach is illegal , unless it is approved there are certain chemicals that are approved to mix with bleach to achieve different results , Ime no chemist but something doesn’t have to contain carbon to be biodegradable as far as Ime aware , bleach is quite safe to drink in the right dilution rate drink it neat and it will kill you , again it’s quite safe to use as a disinfectant in a swimming pool but fill your bath up with it and get in and you will suffer severe burns . Bleach is a naturally forming substance in certain areas and it’s formed by passing electricity through salt water salt water is a natural product but again it can burn the skin in strong concentrations , Ime not a qualified chemist but Ime certainly not going to argue with ones that are and have stated that bleach is biodegradable, also just for reference have a look at this don’t think I need to say anymore

[chris scott]

"Bleach breaks down into oxygen and water."       no it does not.    It contains salt, salt does not break down ...it is inorganic.

" mixing anything with bleach is illegal " not exactly true, You can mix what you want. You just cannot produce a "new" chemical without paperwork to back it up (material safety data sheet) MSDS. Without a data sheet you are operating illegally.

[Splash & dash]

"Bleach breaks down into oxygen and water."       no it does not.    It contains salt, salt does not break down ...it is inorganic.

" mixing anything with bleach is illegal " not exactly true, You can mix what you want. You just cannot produce a "new" chemical without paperwork to back it up (material safety data sheet) MSDS. Without a data sheet you are operating illegally.

Bleach brakes down into oxygen and water and salt, this is a proven scientific fact ,salt is soluble ie it desolves in water and is absorbed by the soil and subsequently absorbed by plants you only have to look at the plant life in very salty environments to see this , as such it is biodegradable fact end of storey . This isn’t my personal view but it’s proved by science maybe you should argue with them .
Mixing anything with bleach is illegal unless it is specifically designed to be mixed with it , look up halothorms and chlomines see what can happen by mixing things that are not specifically designed to be added to it , surprising adding washing up liquid to bleach can cause these serious issues , again don’t take my word for it look it up again scientific fact .
Ime not going to argue with you any more on this subject but as Darren said you think you know everything and cannot be told , do your homework before making false and misleading statements ,as giving out wrong advice on hear isn’t helping anyone , we can all learn no matter how much experience we have in a given subject

[chris scott]

"Bleach breaks down into oxygen and water and salt, this is a proven scientific fact ,salt is soluble ie it dissolves in water"   
 if something "dissolves" in water does not make it biodegradable! ...it's merely soluble in water as you rightly say.

So because plants live in salty environments it means Sodium hypochlorite is biodegradable...this is what you are basing your argument on? ...and what Darren tells you.   Wow....I am gobsmacked    

Sodium (clue in name) Hypochlorite contains salt, (a lot of it) .  Salt is inorganic it's an element (it contains no carbon ) it is impossible to biodegrade.



For your reference

element
ˈɛlɪm(ə)nt/Submit
noun
1.
an essential or characteristic part of something abstract.
"the death had all the elements of a great tabloid story"
synonyms:   component, constituent, part, section, portion, piece, segment, bit; More
2.
each of more than one hundred substances that cannot be chemically interconverted or broken down into simpler substances and are primary constituents of matter. Each element is distinguished by its atomic number, i.e. the number of protons in the nuclei of its atoms.

Sodium being the sixth most common element on the planet  2.6% of the planet is Salt.

[Darran Smith PRSS]

WOW!

Just to put the record straight. As far as I am concerned SoftWash Systems Chemicals are safe to mix with bleach - THIS IS THE REASON THEY WERE MADE - TO MIX WITH BLEACH - EU SDS sheets and are manufactured in the EU.

The machines are made to mix water, bleach and specially made chemicals. The chemicals have not been previously made for another purpose. They are designed to mix with bleach.

One bad example in the UK is the use of washing up liquid or Amine Oxide mixed with bleach by cowboy operators - the products used to make washing up liquids in the UK cause problems to YOUR LUNGS when mixed with bleach.

The reason my cleaning company uses softwash system equipment is to make the job safe for my employees, all they need to do is turn a couple of dials to get the exact mix of softwash chemical they want - easy for them. Combined with a two year long training course which they go through, which starts off with a 3 day Discover Softwash course, makes them the best in the business, and hence the reason why Purple Rhino goes from strength to strength each year.

We offer our customers a 5 year Insurance backed guarantee when we clean their render, cladding or roofs, this means the insurance company is that impressed with the system of training, the use of our Softwash mixture etc etc

Now personally I think that is BIG - and eventually for those who join in and become 5 Star companies in two to three years, they too will be able to offer this guarantee - thats what i call a differentiator and the number one reason we are on target to smash our goals year on year!

We are also Doff users and are featured in industry magazines and other press releases, because we learn how to be amongst the best in the business, we stick to the rules, we offer more to our customers, suppliers etc

Most importantly we help the little guys GROW their businesses, I think that is better than always acting smart, pretending to be an authority and belittling others in our industry.

Have a great day today wherever you are working and work safely.

[chris scott]

You waffle some rubbish Darren.

[Darran Smith PRSS]

Good Morning Chris 

[Splash & dash]

Someone seams to have gone very quite all of a sudden 

[Yada Yada Yada - www.m-clean.uk]

When I spent a spell last year working for Darran I looked into Sodium Hypochlorite & Hydrofluoric acid and how to use them safely  and within the confines of a method statement & risk assessment.

If you get over the general consensus that is slapped on every drum of SH that it is damaging to the environment & aquatic life it is not nearly as clear cut and a lot of the findings don't give any clue as to how long it will take to breakdown within the environment, though the SCHER link does say it is almost immediate on contact with soil & the aquatic environment - See below -

'The decay of hypochlorite in the environment has been studied with a kinetic model
described in detail in an Appendix. According to this model, disappearance of
hypochlorite is practically immediate in the natural aquatic environment, reaching in a
short time concentration as low as 10-22'

I included this report in a recent method statement, to remove stubborn staining on a shopping mall concrete slab floor and the client was more than happy with dilution rates, additional rinse dilution and the run off going to drain.

Darran uses an incredible amount of the stuff and it is in his interest to make sure it is applied and used correctly.

Chris Scott on the other hand has shown, as recently as a couple of days ago, on a Linkedin video that PPE, safe application and concern for the environment are pretty low down on the priorities list for himself and his business and if he is offering a 'professional opinion' ought to marry opinion and safe working practise before he sits on a 'high horse'

I would go with the WHO and the SCHER report over some self proclaimed expert on a forum, who says one thing and does another.

See links -

http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_scher/docs/scher_o_082.pdf - from 2008 but i've read links referring back to this from the WHO (World Health Organisation) dated 2017

https://www.greenfacts.org/en/chlorine-sodium-hypochlorite/l-2/index.htm - this one bottom of the page just before the references.

I use small amounts within the constraints of my RAMS

[Yada Yada Yada - www.m-clean.uk]

Darren

I hope you are well and keeping busy

[Yada Yada Yada - www.m-clean.uk]

To clarify

That is 10 to the power of minus 22

[Smudger]

Cheers for the posts I’ll read those links over the weekend

Darran

[chris scott]

Someone seams to have gone very quite all of a sudden 

Not at all.  You lot are so gullible, it's unbelievable.

The reports are about bioaccumulation, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing  Yada yada yada. 
Bleach is too unstable to bioaccumulate...that still does not make it biodegrade.

[chris scott]

Big nozzle 

[Splash & dash]

Someone seams to have gone very quite all of a sudden 

Not at all.  You lot are so gullible, it's unbelievable.

The reports are about bioaccumulation, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing  Yada yada yada. 
Bleach is too unstable to bioaccumulate...that still does not make it biodegrade.

I think you need to read the reports in context and not just pick on one small point Chris , Ime no expert and don’t pretend to be but these reports and many like them are written by professionals in there field , are you trying to tell me that you know better than them ? Hypo is one tool in a vast toolbox for some types of cleaning it’s not suitable for everything, just like pressurewashing isn’t , if you don’t want to use it that’s fine but don’t automatically condem anyone that does use it responsibly, bleach is evan used by all the major supermarkets to wash all there salad stuff that’s pretty packed if it was as dangerous as you are claiming would it be used for that ? The word biodegradable is open to interpretation but bleach brakes down into compounds that are found in the ground and are absorbed by plants and soil , it’s not something like plastic or nuclear waist that will be affecting our environment for thousands of years . Ime genuinely intrested in how you clean surfaces such as k rend  that’s a very delicate surface and get instant results , I have tried several bio products that take several months to work evan then the results are not acceptable to most people , if you have some magical way of doing it why not share it with others ? Evan you cannot clean everything in the uk 😂😂

[Smudger]

Unfortunately Chris doesn’t like to share, just rip everyone else apart - that’s why this part of the forum is so quiet - the self appointed expert/guru police’s with avengence

Darran

[chris scott]

What would you like me to share?

[Splash & dash]

What would you like me to share?

What would be your choice of cleaning agent on such surfaces as k rend that will give instant results without pressure washing in stead of hypo ?

[chris scott]

There isn’t one... as far as I  am aware.

[Splash & dash]

There isn’t one... as far as I  am aware.

Ok thanks