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simbo

  • Posts: 609
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2006, 09:38:15 am »
What a silly thread, moaning about cost of maintaining wfp while on different threads saying you can do £200 + days, ah the cost must be crippling some of you, you are not working for minimum wage so please no moaning, its silly wfp is brill and so is trad if some do not want to use wfp so what more fool you. not to mention tight
cheers simb0

P @ F

  • Posts: 6319
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2006, 09:42:44 am »
Got to admit , i totally agree with Alex G , i already had a van mount but saw fit to build this trolly system , it was for 1 job i picked up , so far i have used it once and to be completely honest i really think that the £160 i spent building it was a total waste of money , i hate dragging it around and changing the barrels all the time , does my head in !
I now do the same job with a longer hose !

I suppose its another tool in my box though , if the van mount goes to ground it'll get me out of trouble wont it .

The best advice i can give is think very carefully about your type of work and get your system right first time .
Even van mounts should be thought about carefully , if you have the space get the biggest tank you can afford or fit , and pumps are the same for a few extra quid , get the 100 not the 60 , although saying that my 60 goes 4 floors no trouble , but i only run 1 pole at the moment .
And hoses are a downfall too , in my opinion get microbore staight away , you will only end up upgrading your normal hose after a few months , and of course when you do this it'll cost you a bit to change the connections .

 Rich   P @ F  
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

matt

Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2006, 09:44:05 am »
One of the biggest mistakes that people make is by starting with a trolley and then having to upgrade to a vehicle mount after a few months (who wants to lug heavy jerry cans around?)

I know because  years ago I did the same thing and I reckon this was my biggest wasted money spent, as not only did I buy an expensive trolley but then I had to equip my vehicle out as well , fortunately I had also fitted up a trailer system as well as the trolley so I did have an intermediate to use.

 My other mistake was purchasing a sectional aluminium pole with twist clamps (very pricey), such a bad pole to use that after 2 months I threw it in the garage until I managed to sell it on.

I bought from one of the established firms (not the industry changing one!) and including trailer costs spent about £6500 on my set up costs, if I did this now I would have not wasted as much money on 'dead ends' and could probably have setup with a similar system for about £2000 (trailer, vehicle, 45ft pole, 30ft pole, 12ft pole, 15ft pole) because costs have come down since then.

If in doubt try someone else system out, work with them for free, and listen to those who have been doing it 'seriously' for at least 3 years, any one who has done it for less time is still learning themselves.

Alex



Agreed that buying the wrong stuff for the way you wish to work can be a pricey mistake.  However, I have never regretted having a trolley even though I soon bought a van mount system afterwards.  I find that the trolley still earns its keep very well - though I suppose it depends on what sort of work you do.  Knowing what I now know, I would have bought a trolley with attached hosereel though as it would save moving it around so much.

i agree

ive been WFP (for all my round) for 2 years now (still a starter in some eyes)

Ive only brought a new hozelockmicor pipe to hosepipe connection and a brush (i didnt need the brush, but wanted to see what every1 was raving about)

Oh i also brought a 10 quid backpack hand sprayer for the odd house its easier for (1 has loads of winding steps)

my RO now outputs 005 TDS water, the resin has been dead for weeks (it does Nothing now, i wil change it when i can be bothered, but 005 works well enough), ive spent 20 quid on resin (2 X 1 Kg bags)

ive still got the same unger 3 X 2M pole, changed the cones on it twice (a couple of quid each)

Im on a water meter and my bill has gone up about 25 quid a month since i began with the WFP

a trolley / cart does me great, i have just brought a new car for work, air con the works :) i could have gone with a van, but to be honest i like cars, i stick 6 25 L barrels and the cart in the boot, the pole over the seats, ive seen a guy on my estate with a van, he moved the van every few houses (not just moves it, winds the hose in, and then moves it) thats not for me


people mention going cheap, well i guess some people will see the DIY route as going cheap, its cheaper, YES, it does the job well, YES, you can adapt as you like when you make it, so its for you, YES

thats the trouble with buying a system of the shelf, you buy a system that they want to sell you (hotwater systems any1), not what you actually need


feed the monster, my monster must be starving to death ( or eating grass )

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2994
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2006, 12:38:59 pm »
What a silly thread, moaning about cost of maintaining wfp while on different threads saying you can do £200 + days, ah the cost must be crippling some of you, you are not working for minimum wage so please no moaning, its silly wfp is brill and so is trad if some do not want to use wfp so what more fool you. not to mention tight
cheers simb0


Simbo,

This thread is not a 'moan' about the cost of running WFP, but those coming into it need to know that there are higher running costs and these have to be taken into account.

And yes, £200 a day is very feasible...but it won't be if you cut your prices because you are faster!!

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

master cleaner

  • Posts: 519
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2006, 06:08:42 pm »
i started window cleaning 12yrs ago and wfp 8 months ago

i bought 2 of the new omnitrolleys the 50 ltr and the 125 ltr both can be used as trolleys or van mounts so i didnt need an expensive van mount which i wouldnt use much as i am 100% domestic

i have just bought 2 backpacks and have been using them on everything for the last 3 weeks to see which is faster the trolley or backpack and i must say that the backpacks are much faster even after going back to the van to refill them which only takes seconds to do.

i have also just bought the cleantech small fanjets and these are a great watersaving device but i wouldnt use fan jets on the houses with the vents directly above the windows
i added up how much i had spent the other day and it works out somewhere near to 10k but this also includes buying a window cleaning round off a guy who cleaned the same area as me he had a fall so i bought him out

i do agree that wfp does take more of your time when you are at home but i find that i am always tinkering with things to make me faster and i enjoy it i enjoy golf and am always buying things to make me better and it is the same with wfp i enjoy doing it so i dont mind spending money to get better at it because the better i get the more money i earn

gary

abacus

  • Posts: 229
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2006, 10:24:08 pm »
Hi jinky

you are right about the cost the problem is that evryone is the expert when selling you something but all contadict each other they all consider they have the best product really its horses for courses I spent a lot over the first two years to find the perfect set up unless you confine yourself to one type of property there is not one perfect system like most thing in life its a compramise and a question of choice. I think it is also important to try to understand the system you have so you can fix most things your self I know people run there poles in just to have the plastic shims fitted this really is a waste of money most places will charge labour out at £35.00+ ph It is sometimes worth checking out if there is a local dealer it reduces the down time and the need to carry spares

safety is the most inportant  aspect and it is up to all wc to make the public aware that this industry is profesional and not  a part time beer money job a lot of people still consider most window cleaners to part time or cash in in hand non tax paying most of my customers are more willing to pay the higher prices now I have the pole system as they can see it requires a much larger investment it has taken time but is paying off

Like you jinky I would still go wfp if starting out again I just wish I could of found out  about thing a cheaper way I really would have brought a different system  the benifit of reading the post here would of been substantial wish I know about the forum four years ago  being fair to the manufacturers things are improving all the time.

best of luck to all considering wfp think carefully what you require before you decide which system to go for.

regards grant
A service you can count on
SAFEcontractor approved

Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2006, 10:58:11 pm »
I did loads and I mean loads of research before going WFP.

There are many things to consider when deciding the best way to go. Not least the nature of your work and the vehicles you work from.

The Freedom trolley is a result of this. It was designed and built to suit my workload/vehicles etc. Now.. with a mind to the future I had it inbuilt to be able to power any tank mount/hose/pole combination as I wanted to get more commercial work. I now have a van with a tank and the trolley powers that for the "big stuff" I keep saying this and its true. It was only after using the trolley myself for a few months that I recognised that many window cleaners could benefit from it. I say many.. not all because it may not suit everyones work. The 1st question I ask anyone enquiring about the trolley is "what kind of workload do you have.. this is closely followed by what vehicle do you use. This gives me a good idea of whether the trolly is the best way forward for them If it isnt I tell them so.

Anyway for me the costs weighed against the benefits of going WFP are very..very negligable. I know what we earn.. and how much it costs in equipment and consumables to earn that. I dont know any other business that offers such a massive return on investment. Of course there is a cost and people should be aware of it.. and there are ongoing ones but again these are nothing really. A few hozelock type connectors/jubilee clips etc in the vehicle will take care of all but the worst problems with WFP very quickly. And.. I dont have any problem at all with the whole 5 mins it takes to get ready for the next days work.

Andrew




jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2006, 11:30:38 pm »
Hi Guy's

Just like to butt in a minute, I decided to go wfp a couple of months ago,and knew I wouldn't be doing it for a few months to come, so I decided to research the systems, including the DIY route, even priniming my customers to see there reactions, now out of over 300 customers I had just one who hmmed and harrred, every other one has been possitive.

Now the reason I jumped in was just to say, Jinky its a great thread, and thanks to all you guy's who have given us your honest views, on the cost of running your systems. There has been a lot of honest answers given by you all, and it is a great help to people like myself looking to change over to wfp.

I must admit nothing printed by you guy's is not going to put anyone of changing over, but it will encourage us.

Once again guy's my thanks goes out to you all for your input. Now I will back out and watch the thread with a different out look. Thanks again.

P @ F

  • Posts: 6319
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2006, 11:36:19 pm »
Very true Andrew , i had a look at Craig JWC's van the other day , he runs one of your systems which connects to a van mount , he truly has the best of both worlds , he can get anywhere he wants , except into weight watchers of course !

 Rich   P @F  
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

rosskesava

Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2006, 11:47:50 pm »
Quote
And yes, £200 a day is very feasible...but it won't be if you cut your prices because you are faster!!

That is it in a nutshell. It's coming for wfp users but that is how a free market works.

We now charge extra for some ex wfp customers (done wfp by someone else) to have their houses/properties now done trad style.

WFP has many benifits but I never expected that to be one of them. Especially for wealthier customers who have not been happy with wfp.

We do use wfp but the dissatsifaction of wfp by some customers has been a hidden benifit.

I think it will become like any tradesman who uses older methods - worth it's weight in gold to the right people who are prepared to pay for it.

Also, we've been using wfp for almost a year now and the only real cost additional cost so far has been resin. Wfp has earnt us a lot of extra money but has cost under £100 to run in the last year. Pound for pound, wfp is a money earner untill the customer expects a lower cost because the windows are being done wfp.

Cheers

P @ F

  • Posts: 6319
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2006, 01:04:15 am »
If only there was a way to work out a cost of a person doing their round trad for one month and then wfp for one month , if i am really honest i cant see much difference , ive had a few so i might be talking bollards , obviously water and resin are the major costs for wfp , but when i was trad the wash machine was on every night along with the tumble drier , then the soap powder the fairy liquid , the rubbers , applicators , damaged channels , it all adds up .

I would say ill give it a go , trad then wfp , but i cant bring myself to do it due to the fact that i would lose too much money !

Off the top of my head i would say my wfp costs in a month were ....
 £25 resin
 £20 water

I cant really put a price on wear and tear of gear as i have not replaced anything but brush heads in my year so far , they were not needed as it was an upgrade to fan jets .

 So thats £45 for wfp .
 
 As for trad in a month ...
 £3 soap powder
 
 That leaves £42 , surely the wash machine and tumbler come to that !

 Am i talking rubbish , or is this poss ?

 Rich   P @ F
   
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2006, 08:01:02 am »
So thats £45 for wfp .
 
 As for trad in a month ...
 £3 soap powder
 
 That leaves £42 , surely the wash machine and tumbler come to that !

 Am i talking rubbish , or is this poss ?
Afraid so Rich. ;D

I have the washing machine on once a week, and sometimes I handwash, so not at all sometimes....

My equipment is £15-20 every 4 months or so.

By the time you average out your bigger bills with wfp, like new brushes, hoses etc....it's probably costing you that a day. :o

Of course, not to mention time lost to breakdowns....
In short, no thanks. ;)

P @ F

  • Posts: 6319
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2006, 10:13:00 am »
O.K. Sqeaky , i will put it another way , now that i have a clearer head !

 I was pretty slow as a trad cleaner , in fact i went backwards at times , my average daily take was about £70 , £350 a week .

 Now wfp , i earn on average £120 , £600 a week .

 These figures are based on full days , domestic only .

 I am missing the point again i know  ::) , but , as you can see i get £250 a week more through wfp , so , who cares if it costs more to run it ?

 It does not cost £250 per week to run , so i can fully justify spending that bit more on it .

 As for breakdowns stopping play , touch wood i have only had one so far , and that turned out to be a loose connection on my power switch !
 If all else fails we can still go up a ladder for a few days .

 You would have to be pretty unlucky to have to spend £250 in one week on a breakdown in your system .

 In short , wfp costs are higher , but the earnings totally justify this .

 I still offer you this free tank Squeaky ....... It'll fit in a cheap escort van  ;D

 Rich P @ F


 
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7742
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2006, 11:19:50 am »
Ultimately it's all about time.

How much is your time (and safety) worth.

I used to take 4 1/2 days a week to do my mainly commercial work. Since the introduction of WFP 5 years ago I now do more work than before in just 2 1/2 days a week.....what's that worth?

As i have been set up a while my monthly average maintenance spend is about £25-30 for WFP. I run a very cheap RO system, so my only costs are prefilters (£5 per month), small amount of resin (£2 month) about 1 new pole every 10 months (£150), a new reel of hose every 2 years (£80), and sometimes the odd connector

The above are my maintenance costs for my current system, they do not include any upgrades.

These are realistic costs and have been ongoing now for several years, but are dependant on getting the right system set up.

Alex

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2006, 05:08:27 pm »
O.K. Sqeaky , i will put it another way , now that i have a clearer head !

 I was pretty slow as a trad cleaner , in fact i went backwards at times , my average daily take was about £70 , £350 a week .

 Now wfp , i earn on average £120 , £600 a week .

 These figures are based on full days , domestic only .
Ah, I see!

My average is £100-120 now anyway, and I'm cheaper than most and work pretty short hours.
If I wanted to I could do plenty more.

If it's improved your takings though, fair play to you. :)

bluesteve

  • Posts: 153
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2006, 05:44:03 pm »
£1000 or just below to get started with wfp , carrying a 175 tank , extremely low maintanance as far as im concerned, however i only use it about 16 30 hours per week, its certainly improved my earnings and as for spares
not everything going to break at the same time.
  As for big commercial systems i cant comment but for domestic its the dogs b******s , maybe just do the research before you buy for what suits you.
"Soldier an' Sailor too" !

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2006, 07:28:39 pm »
I went the DIY route and designed my system to suit my round. I have made a few.  small changes that cost me nothing apart from time,The pump box and hose reel just lifts off, if I wanted a van mount I would only have to stick a tank on my trailer, everything else to run it, is in the box.
It costs me £1 a day for resin DI only. Although trolley based I hardly ever take it round the back. I just pull the micro bore off the hose reel.
What advantage could I have by having a van mounted system? I can carry 50lts on the trolley if I need to. I seldom have to move the van all day, and if I park it right I can work all day and never be more than a 100 yards from it. 50 lts takes me up to 11 o'clock break time. I go back to the van and change containers. The new containers takes me up to lunch time when I change them again. A quick coffee break at 3.30 and the new containers will then last me out the day. I never use more than 8. If I have a major system breakdown I can use the back pack and my Mrs can trad the bottoms. I only had one since August when the Varistream packed in.
Apart from the initial investment, the costs have been very little in money terms.
However, the costs in time are considerably more. I don't mind the tweaking here and there as WFP has become a bit of a hobby. filling the containers after a hard day, especially in winter can be a pain in the rear.
Yes we do work a lot faster, and earn more, but as others have said the safety aspect is the most important thing. I can't believe how much I now hate using ladders, having been perfectly happy using them for so many years. Dai

P @ F

  • Posts: 6319
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2006, 09:27:02 pm »
So you see what i mean Squeaky , imagine how much more you could earn in the same time , you wont even have to raise your prices . but then who knows WFP may slow you down , i will stop twisting your arms now , if you do have a change of heart , the tank is here for you bud .

 Rich   P @ F
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

rosskesava

Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2006, 09:42:04 pm »
I've gone back through our expenses for equipment for the last 6 months.

As far as I can work out roughly 25% of our work is wfp.

Cost for trad supplies - £241

Cost for wfp stuff - £73

So if in theory each was 100% - £321 compared to £292.

Roughly the same which is a suprise to me also.

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: feed the monster at a cost
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2006, 09:54:56 pm »
How much?!
Your workers must be pretty rough with thier rubbers and scrims Ross. :o ;D