[Trevor Knight]

It remains to be seen if ladders are to be banned, personally I can't see it. But as someone coming back into window cleaning it can seem rather depressing with all this wfp, perhaps they should rename this site WFP only. There is still so much work out there that doesn't require the necessity of wfp. I have just recently bought a round form a guy who started back with his father over 40 years ago, and 80% of the work is at ground level( shop fronts etc) along with the work being spread out. For approx 12-15 hours per week that nets me £15000. A lot of guys on the forum seem to be on a mission to make as much per hour as possible, this I think makes people like me and others anxious, as if the only alternative is to join the wfp revolution. I think for the foreseeable future there will be plenty of work for traditional , you just have to be more selective but like with all things, one has to keep abreast of change, I too am just in the process of acquiring a backpack to assist me on some jobs and to enable me to work within H&S legislation, not to build an empire

Hi Shaun,

Welcome back to window cleaning and to this forum.

I would like to make a few points regarding your posting.

1) There are many Traditional w/c's on here who contribute valuable and useful information. Yes, there are also many WFP cleaners too, but if you want advice about anything, trad/WFP then all you have to do is ask. This is not a biased forum in any way.

2) No one is saying you HAVE to use WFP for ALL your work, all that is being said is if your working up a ladder then WFP is an alternative and safer method.

3) WFP is the new "buzz" for want of a better description, but just like everything in this world, you either join in or stay away, either way its down to personal choice.

4) As for building your empire, again thats a choice only individuals can make and not just because you use WFP to clean with.

I hope this does not come across to strong and apologise if it does but just wanted to clear up a few things that just didn't sound right.

Best wishes,

Trev

[shaunjames]

Hi Trevor
 The point I was really trying to make, was that anybody possibly considering working in this industry might be put off, but don't be. Coming to a forum like this initially, and thinking that with all the legislation with ladders and so forth, that there was no place for traditional no more. And yes i'm speaking about myself, I forked out a couple of grand sevaral weeks ago, came to this forum and suddenly thought i'd made a big mistake. However I have had time to revaluate things, and  with all the great advise from this forum, realised that there is plenty of work out there for traditional work, but nonetheless will have to introdce myself to wfp gradually as this is obviously the way forward

[Paul Coleman]

I personally don't think that trad w/c will ever be a thing of the past and I hope not. I am not against wfp. I believe there is a place for both within our industry.I do however believe (and this is only my opinion) that someone in the government will be getting brown envelopes to help push through legislation to ban ladders. Who really benefits... The Manufacturers make a fortune because everybody has to have the equipment. Prices go through the roof because you have no choice.

However if HSE want to tighten ladder control I personally have no issues with that. I see a lot of idiots about and they need to be stopped.  For example there are 2 guys around Southampton in a white escort. I passed them the other day and instead of proper feet on the bottom of their wooden ladders they had old bike tyre rubber. Yes it is their choice but I was annoyed because these guys are prob cheap and they have a fair amount of commercial work aas well as domestic so these people should be re educated. if poss.

Half a mile from where I live, a window cleaner came off his ladder recently.  It was a wooden ladder and it snapped.  I know the guy.  He was in hospital for a while with brain hemorrage.  He's out now but may not work again I've heard.  I had my haircut in thwe shop next door a couple of days ago.  The hairdresser told me about it as he was the one who called the ambulance.  There was a lot of blood apparently and it could easily have been another death.  When the hairdresser told me the ladder had snapped I wondered if he was exagerating at first.  However, the ladder was still down the side of the premises so I checked it.  It had snapped alright.  It looked old so probably wasn't checked enough.  The job he was doing off a ladder was fine for WFP.  I didn't offer though.  Just in case the guy recovers in a few weeks he will need some work to return to.  Actually, I'd be happy to take some of his work to make sure someone else didn't - and then give it back to him when/if he was ready.  But I don't know which ones he does or how to contact him.
Thew hairdresser still seemed a bit shocked when he told me what happened - and the accident was a week or two ago.  So, even though we say it should be out choice, it does affect others too.

[shaunjames]

I apologise if anybody took offence to my statement about empire building, but I think that with the advent of wfp, window cleaning can and perhaps will become a more lucrative profession, far removed from the more genteel days of traditional work, Tesco plc comes to mind. My daughters husband, best mate has a fairly big going concern, buying up local window cleaning rounds and selling franchises, he is positively ripping through windows, but I have seen some of his lads working and the work is not always to the highest order. I contacted a guy recently who was on this forum who wanted to start a round and lives local to me, and offer him any support I could give. However he got back to me and decided he didn't have the money to make the investment into wfp. Thats a shame because he still could of sourced work but obviously decided in part down to his take on the forum, that wfp was the only way in. Finally when I saw this post I responded immediately and possibly emotionally because it is something I strongly believe in, other local trad guys I've spoken too, are frankly poopting themselves believing there going to be out of work, with immediate effect.
shaun

[shaunjames]

Whilst in no way would I want  you to think that your response is not a genuine one to the guy you knew and fell, but nevertheless it sometimes comes across as a slightly spurious point as with all things in life there is risk, and that the falling of the ladder issue is used sometimes just simply to further wfp. Thousands upon thousands of people have plyed there trade over the decades fully aware of the dangers and risks. We are more and more living in a world where risk is being removed, and decisions taken for us. If the analogy of the risks using ladders were applied to all things ie cars, motorcyles, food etc,etc the world would be a very sterile place. For me its about making a responsible risk assessment with all things we do to minimise risk, but it should remain a personal decision. FREEDOM MAN
shaun

[awl]

it seems every one on this site uses  wfp

hi FAST ONE
 we dont use wfp YET, but are thinking about, come october, we do only domestic at the mo, but with wfp, we can bramch out to commercial. 3 years ago i fell from my ladder and had multipule injuries, i was on my own at the time and slipped on decking my own stupid fault, was on the sick 3 months,,, but im back on them again, but im not on my own and im very safety concious,

best wishes
mandy

[Trevor Knight]

There will ALWAYS be opportunities for Traditional window cleaning. Every window that can be reached from the ground CAN be cleaned traditional, its all down to choice.

Even if the WAH directive is forced and becomes the only way forward this still does not stop Traditional methods being used on the ground floor levels.

I have suffered 3 falls in my 15 years, yes I admit they were in my younger days when risk perhaps wasn't a word I thought about. However, now, it is my FIRST concern and something I will not ignore.

A vaild point by Shaun though, I can see that a newcomer would think he HAS to get WFP in order to continue. Maybe we should post an appropriate message?

Best wishes,

Trev

[Fast 1 *]

well said.Speaking as someone who takes pride in their work,i prefer the more close up,hands on approach of traditional,the fact that you are close to the glass means a better job.To me,wfp seems more about making money,rather than doing a good job(that will get some backs up).I can fully understand the safety element of wfp,but it totally takes the pride element out of window cleaning.I would find it hard walking away from a job,thinking they might not done to a high standard.If wfp completely took over,i would strongly consider going back to the building game.No offence

[shaunjames]

Is that day or half day to work with you still on offer Trevor, te see or get some wfp experience. I'm such a hipocrite eh! 
Shaun

[Paul Coleman]

Whilst in no way would I want  you to think that your response is not a genuine one to the guy you knew and fell, but nevertheless it sometimes comes across as a slightly spurious point as with all things in life there is risk, and that the falling of the ladder issue is used sometimes just simply to further wfp. Thousands upon thousands of people have plyed there trade over the decades fully aware of the dangers and risks. We are more and more living in a world where risk is being removed, and decisions taken for us. If the analogy of the risks using ladders were applied to all things ie cars, motorcyles, food etc,etc the world would be a very sterile place. For me its about making a responsible risk assessment with all things we do to minimise risk, but it should remain a personal decision. FREEDOM MAN
shaun

Sure thing Shaun.
3,000 people die on the UK roads every year and no-one stops us driving.  I'm not anti trad.  I cleaned that way until October last year for 15 years - and had a couple of very near misses in that time. Either of them could have killed me but I got away with it totally unscathed.  I still do a couple of jobs the trad way (oxidised frames) but I am thinking of passing those jobs on.
When Ihave read about ladder users dieing  and getting injured it has saddened me greatly as it's just not necessary.  This time, it's a guy I have known for many years - not closely though.  He did (does?) a lot of cleaning in the local town centre and we often stopped for a chat if I was in town early.  Most of his work is ground floor shop windows so I guess that's why he never made the investment into WFP.
I hope he recovers ok.

[poleman]

Misconception about doing a bad or not good job with a WFP

We have been using a WFP on commercial for over 4 years – the past 4 months we have been taking on houses (canvassing) and all the first cleans which can be a nightmare – WELL had not one moan and we have even had phone calls saying thank you for doing a very good job – we are very pleased with you services – the windows have a extra shine and the frames are all most as new as they was first put in

Andy   

[Trevor Knight]

Is that day or half day to work with you still on offer Trevor, te see or get some wfp experience. I'm such a hipocrite eh! 
Shaun

Yes Shaun, just call me next week and we can arrange a day for you. Do you want commercial or domestic day out?

Let me know,

Trev

[shaunjames]

Hi Trevor, choices, choices. I'm going to be buying a backpack initially so domestic would seem better, however one of the jobs I have is 2nd storey flats, which will require a 30 ft pole. what do you suggest? Maybe if you forward me your tel no. I could ring you.
Cheers
Shaun

Ps do you have or ever use a backpack?

[windows_chepstow]

Apart from the fact it would wind-up Squeaky  , I hope a total ladder ban is never enforced.

I like having the choice of WFP or ladders.  I can think of many our accounts I find easier to use ladders with.

Call me irresponsible, but if a ban on ladders was enforced; I'd probably disregard it, unless the property owner stopped me.

---------------------------------------

Saying all that, at present, according to the current regulations, ladders are a LAST resort when all other possibilities are impractical.

Then the ladders have to be held steady with a ladder stabilisation device AND tied off too!

The WAH guidance says that the the guiding principle behind the regulations is to avoid working at height where-ever possible.

So according to the regs, ladders are basically already banned!

[P @ F]

THERE ISNT ONE !
Wait for Squeaky   

 Rich P @ F

[Moderator David@stives]

Ladders will definately be phased out over the next few years for window cleaning.

On the rumour mill, i have heard that within 18 months the hse will set a time table for all window cleaners to comply fully with the wahd and to use wfp instead of ladders.

Just remember the phrases" reasonably practicable" and "all other methods have been considered"
These are the very words from Ian Greenwoods mouth.

Here is a question

What is your interpretation of the words "reasonably practicable" in the Ian greenwood statement on Newsnight ?

Dave

[pjulk]

David

What do you think would happen to window cleaners who can't afford a WFP as i expect there are some window cleaners scraping by on what they earn.

If they can't afford a WFP system would that mean they would have to pack up.

I would also be good when they make the regualtions clearer.

Paul

[Sir Squeaky]

On the rumour mill, i have heard that within 18 months the hse will set a time table for all window cleaners to comply fully with the wahd and to use wfp instead of ladders.

In that case it's up to them to supply a replacement.

They can't just stop someones business of years and years.

They'll find 100,000+ people fighting it.
They can't win that one, and I for one won't let them.

[jeff1]

can't [/i]win that one, and I for one won't let them.

I'm not so sure your right squeaks, A customer of mine has had to give up his business after 20 years because of these regulations. ok may be a different trade but it was banned.

Just to let you know what it was, I'll tell you.
His business was at a Riding school for disabled children, and his staff used to have to hold the children on there horses,
he said to me you could not measure there smiles with a tape measure, and because his staff had to hold the children on the horses this was now banned, because they were not allowed to touch the children.
20 years in the business down the pan because of regulations.

[Trevor Knight]

Hi Trevor, choices, choices. I'm going to be buying a backpack initially so domestic would seem better, however one of the jobs I have is 2nd storey flats, which will require a 30 ft pole. what do you suggest? Maybe if you forward me your tel no. I could ring you.
Cheers
Shaun

Ps do you have or ever use a backpack?

Hi Shaun,

Details on my website www.firstcleanservices.co.uk

Give me a call on Tuesday and we will sort stuff out for ya. Probably domestic would be better if thats how your going forward.

As for a backpack, no, we dont use them. Is an option for later on down the road maybe but we don't have terraced houses on our books so always use side access.

Best wishes,

Trev