[keyser soze]

Hi guys I’ve just revamped my water purifying system which i have in the garage and decided to install a water softener mainly because i was having to buy a new 4040 membrane every year . After setting .up my TDS pre water softener is at 340 and after the coming out the softener its risen to 440. Is that normal ? or have i done something wrong .? After the ro its coming out at 20 . Also can the salt in the water effect the ro .Any advice would really appreciated thanks in advance

[deeege]

Why are you needing to buy a new membrane every year? Something isn’t right there, are you using pre filters?

[Simon Trapani]

Is it an automatic water softener? You don't ever want to send salt through your RO as it'll instantly ruin it as I once found out to my cost. The salt is just to regenerate your softener resin.

I fear you've sent salt through your membrane.

[Perfect Windows]

Hi guys I’ve just revamped my water purifying system which i have in the garage and decided to install a water softener mainly because i was having to buy a new 4040 membrane every year . After setting .up my TDS pre water softener is at 340 and after the coming out the softener its risen to 440. Is that normal ? or have i done something wrong .? After the ro its coming out at 20 . Also can the salt in the water effect the ro .Any advice would really appreciated thanks in advance

You may have a different problem if you're replacing a membrane a year. You may have biological contamination in your system. If the inside of your RO casing or the membrane itself feels slimy it's likely.

If you do then here's what I did in May five years ago and my 4040 bought then is still producing at 8/9/10ppm from 300-350 input.  Total cost, a day or so and a 29p bottle of bleach.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=175665.msg1483617#msg1483617

[EDIT] just checked, it was six years ago

Vin

[dd]

I use a water softener. The softener itself does not effect the tds of the water much. When I measured some years ago the tds of water going out of softener was 002-004 lower than going in. The softener should extend membrane life.

On my softener there are various settings according to how hard the water is. You are supposed to measure the hardness of the water and set softener accordingly.

Maybe your softener is set wrong and you are using too much salt.

[Pete Thompson]

In my humble opinion, softeners are pointless, even if they extend the life of your membrane.

Here's why:

Say you spend an average 5 minutes each working day faffing around with your softener. Either backwashing it with salt or measuring the output or flushing it out to make sure all the salt is gone or whatever.  5 minutes is not much time, but time is money.

If you work 4 days per week, that's 86 minutes a month, or just over 17 hours per year.

17 hours @ £25 per hour is £425.  I know most (or all) people on here will earn much more then £25 per hour, but being conservative

A brand new 4040 membrane costs £323 incl VAT and shipping and including an hour of your time changing them over.

So even if you have to buy a brand new one every single year it will still be cheaper than faffing with about with a softener.  And that's before you even pay for the softner consumables such as salt.

Just my opinon.

[Marc Stock]

I just replace my membranes yearly.

Can't be bothered with faffing about.

[Simon Trapani]

I have a 4040 static. It's no faff. Mine's an automatic softener. I just turn the numpty to regenerate every 1000 litres or so of pure. Yes you have to buy the salt obviously but my last membrane lasted 8 years so for me I still think it's more financially economical than keep replacing membranes.

Gaps water state on their website:

"If you have hard water there are many advantages to using an automatic water softener.

Removing calcium carbonate from the water stops your membrane from scaling up. As it removes the calcium carbonate it replaces it with sodium which the membrane can more readily reject so this improves the product water tds. HOWEVER a water softener also reduces your pressure by at least 1/2 bar so if your pressure is on the low side the pressure drop can negate a lot of the advantages of using a water softener. Also if you do not regenerate the water softener often enough firstly it stops having any effect on your water chemistry, it also causes a greater pressure drop as the softener clogs with debris. If left long enough without a regeneration bacteria can start to grow in your resin bed which will eventually contaminate your membrane.

Manual water softeners should be avoided as they are rarely regenerated often enough and the method of regeneration is not fully effective in removing all the deposits from the resin making it less and effective at removing hardness each time it is regenerated. A manual softener obviously has the advantages of being cheaper and not requiring electricity but regenerating takes about an hour and has to be done every fill (depending on size and water hardness) which is quite a time commitment for most window cleaners and even taking care to use enough salt go through slow rinse, fast rinse etc. you will struggle to replicate the efficient regeneration cycles of an automatic water softener.

In conclusion use a water softener only if you have hard water, have good pressure and have an automatic water softener."

[keyser soze]

Why are you needing to buy a new membrane every year? Something isn’t right there, are you using pre filters?

its the hard water it clogs it up hence the water softener

[keyser soze]

Why are you needing to buy a new membrane every year? Something isn’t right there, are you using pre filters?

its the hard water it clogs it up hence the water softener

[keyser soze]

Why are you needing to buy a new membrane every year? Something isn’t right there, are you using pre filters?

its the hard water it clogs it up hence the water softener

yes brand new pre filters

[keyser soze]

I have a 4040 static. It's no faff. Mine's an automatic softener. I just turn the numpty to regenerate every 1000 litres or so of pure. Yes you have to buy the salt obviously but my last membrane lasted 8 years so for me I still think it's more financially economical than keep replacing membranes.

Gaps water state on their website:

"If you have hard water there are many advantages to using an automatic water softener.

Removing calcium carbonate from the water stops your membrane from scaling up. As it removes the calcium carbonate it replaces it with sodium which the membrane can more readily reject so this improves the product water tds. HOWEVER a water softener also reduces your pressure by at least 1/2 bar so if your pressure is on the low side the pressure drop can negate a lot of the advantages of using a water softener. Also if you do not regenerate the water softener often enough firstly it stops having any effect on your water chemistry, it also causes a greater pressure drop as the softener clogs with debris. If left long enough without a regeneration bacteria can start to grow in your resin bed which will eventually contaminate your membrane.

Manual water softeners should be avoided as they are rarely regenerated often enough and the method of regeneration is not fully effective in removing all the deposits from the resin making it less and effective at removing hardness each time it is regenerated. A manual softener obviously has the advantages of being cheaper and not requiring electricity but regenerating takes about an hour and has to be done every fill (depending on size and water hardness) which is quite a time commitment for most window cleaners and even taking care to use enough salt go through slow rinse, fast rinse etc. you will struggle to replicate the efficient regeneration cycles of an automatic water softener.

In conclusion use a water softener only if you have hard water, have good pressure and have an automatic water softener."

yes thank you . It is an automatic softener but i bought it second hand . It says its on the display the resin beads are fully charged. Im thinking it might need a service and perhaps a resin change .

[Simon Trapani]

I would speak to Gaps Water or the manufacturer. Maybe see if you can download the instructions if you haven't got any. They're pretty basic to fit. I have a bypass in my pipework leading up to it in case of faults. Do you know if it was working properly previously?

At least with an automatic you can't send salt through your RO. I think the resin lasts years and years. You just have to keep regenerating/backwashing with the salt/brine solution.

[keyser soze]

Why are you needing to buy a new membrane every year? Something isn’t right there, are you using pre filters?

yes using pre filters

[keyser soze]

Is it an automatic water softener? You don't ever want to send salt through your RO as it'll instantly ruin it as I once found out to my cost. The salt is just to regenerate your softener resin.

I fear you've sent salt through your membrane.

probably have sent salt into ro but only a few litres because i feared it would damage ro

[keyser soze]

Probably best to stop using it until I’m sure its serviced and I’m confident to set it up again

[Perfect Windows]

Why are you needing to buy a new membrane every year? Something isn’t right there, are you using pre filters?

its the hard water it clogs it up hence the water softener

As mentioned above, my input TDS is similar to yours. There is no way yours can be "clogging up" because of the hardness every year. Mine's six years old and as good as new. Something else must be wrong.

Vin

[Simon Trapani]

Is it an automatic water softener? You don't ever want to send salt through your RO as it'll instantly ruin it as I once found out to my cost. The salt is just to regenerate your softener resin.

I fear you've sent salt through your membrane.

probably have sent salt into ro but only a few litres because i feared it would damage ro

I don't think it's actually possible to send salt through your RO with an automatic softener. When I sent it through it was a manual softener and I had forgot to change the hoses over. Hence why I bought an automatic. 

Later I put the automatic head on a much bigger vessel so I could regenerate less often and got a much larger brine tank that would hold 2-3 bags of salt.

[Slacky]

I sometimes wonder if inadequate water pressure with hard water is never a good combination.

Ive struggled with longevity of membrane life ever since Ive been making R.O.

My tap water is 55 p.s.i. with a TDS of 300.

Eventually last week the water being produced prior to D.I. was coming out at 90.

After talking to Mr G on the phone for a good while eventually last week I bought a D.A.B. booster pump. The water p.s.i. is now 120 and slowly the quality of water produced has come down to 55. Its still running, hopefully it'll come down another 20.

I suspect inadequate pressure with  a high TDS tends to block membranes.

[keyser soze]

After a few checks the TDS meter thats inline is reading wrong . It shows 450 but checking it at the same source with a hand held TDS meter. its the same as the normal pre filter reading . Which is around 340 . I just need to adjust the inline TDS meter settings . Strange because its brand new..