[Marc Stock]

So, I have had to return home briefly for the smart meter man to install a new gas meter to bring us up from the stone-age.  Just been going through some figures for Bramar Ltd's progress and found out that after all mine & the wifes wages & business expenses the company retained 16% profit on the total sales turnover for the year.

This is just for fun.....but working on that 16% basis i can project the following, growth figures.

£60k- Turnover- £9,600 Retained company profit (2 Vans)
£80k- Turnover -£12.800 Retained company profit (2 Vans)
£100k Turnover- £16,000 Retained company profit (3 Vans)
£250k Turnover- £40,000 Retained company profit (4 Vans)
£500k Turnover £80,000 Retained company profit (6 Vans)
£1M Turnover (Pryors) £160,000 Retained company profit (12 Vans)

Now for silly bugger figures....
£2M Turnover (nuts it wont happen) £320,000 Retained company profit (24 Vans)
£5M Turnover £800,000 Retained company profit (60 Vans)
£10m Turniver £1.6Million Retained company profit( 120 Vans)

Just for fun this is.

 

[Mick Kent]

Dont you do £300 a day on your own??
Thats 78k 1 van just doing 5 days a week.
Where do you get 2 vans 60k turnover from?

[Stoots]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

[John Mart]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

[Stoots]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

[John Mart]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

[Marc Stock]

Dont you do £300 a day on your own??
Thats 78k 1 van just doing 5 days a week.
Where do you get 2 vans 60k turnover from?

I never said that. Some days i hit £300, sometimes £400 but i dont work full time.

£60k is the point i will get another van, and start with another chap.

I could push onto £80k by myself, but i don't want to window clean 5 days a week it makes me miserable; been doing this 15 years now and i just don't think i could do another 5 years on my own.

[NWH]

Domestic round employing does work but you need high end work,there’s money in it why would you think there isn’t,id wager there’s a few out there with 1 employee doing between 10-14k a month turnover.

[Stoots]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  and years in growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and another in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

What I've quickly learnt on the very limited time I've been employing someone is that just because I could have 5 vans out doing the work and me taking 50k it's certainly not any easier than doing the work yourself. The lack of control is stressfull in itself.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I'm not just taking a wild guess at this. I know my local market, I know what other cleaners charge and i know what I can and can't get away with to grow on a bigger scale.

If I was in Surrey with an average price of £24 it would be a totally different game, but I'm not.

Here's what it boils down to for me.
Window cleaning is great, it got me out of a dead end job and it opened up my eyes to what is possible if you work for it. I really enjoy business, i just wouldn't enjoy a big window cleaning business, it's far too stressfull on a small scale, I wouldn't want that amplified.

All just my opinion, but it's the only one that matters to me tbh.

[John Mart]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

[Stoots]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

[John Mart]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

We never miss a day with weather. Very rare for sickness. If you start from the premise you’ll lose 12 weeks of the year, you’re doomed before you start and employing isn’t for you.

[Stoots]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

We never miss a day with weather. Very rare for sickness. If you start from the premise you’ll lose 12 weeks of the year, you’re doomed before you start and employing isn’t for you.

Ok well then your round is different to mine then as I can't guarantee to clean every customer every week of the year with a hitch. I might not have been doing this all that long but I've been doing it long enough to know the reality.

If you saw my other thread you will see I've lost £200 in turnover just today.

Did the beast from the east not come to your part of the UK?

Get real mate, there no point making financial forcasts based on ideal scenarios.

[Tom-01]

Domestic round employing does work but you need high end work,there’s money in it why would you think there isn’t,id wager there’s a few out there with 1 employee doing between 10-14k a month turnover.

Nooooooooooo surely not.

[Splash & dash]

Domestic round employing does work but you need high end work,there’s money in it why would you think there isn’t,id wager there’s a few out there with 1 employee doing between 10-14k a month turnover.

Nooooooooooo surely not.

On paper it’s quite possible but in the real world much harder to do you would need veryhigh  priced work every muinet of every working day I think it depends the areas that you live/work in if around London and the Home Counties it will be a lot easier than other parts of the country

[KS Cleaning]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

Adam IMO you need to be quicker on each house you clean. I remember a while back you said you were OCD,  but to put it bluntly your prices ( just like mine ) don't allow you to be over cleaning a property if you want to make decent money. You need to find a balance between over cleaning and splash and dash.

[Lee Pryor]

I like this thread 😃

[John Mart]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

We never miss a day with weather. Very rare for sickness. If you start from the premise you’ll lose 12 weeks of the year, you’re doomed before you start and employing isn’t for you.

Ok well then your round is different to mine then as I can't guarantee to clean every customer every week of the year with a hitch. I might not have been doing this all that long but I've been doing it long enough to know the reality.

If you saw my other thread you will see I've lost £200 in turnover just today.

Did the beast from the east not come to your part of the UK?

Get real mate, there no point making financial forcasts based on ideal scenarios.

Ok, you caught me in a lie there. We lost one day through the snow, but in three years of employing that is the only day. £200 in turnover? Piffle! I lost 4 jobs the day before yesterday! £600 in a year. That’s the other thing about domestic though, it’s non stop marketing so they will have been replaced within a day or two.

I base all my forecasts on a van working 46 weeks as historically that’s actually less than what happens as I will usually cover some of the holidays.

I realise the weather can be a bit less forgiving in the north but as long as it is safe to do so, you should be working every day if you want to employ.

[Stoots]

I've done similar calculations Marc (with different figures obviously as we are opposite ends of the country)

The conclusion I've drawn is that residential window cleaning on a large scale (at least for my numbers) is a hell of a lot of hard work and investment for not a great deal of return.

That's why I've decided to stay small, just under VAT and look into other business opportunities.

even with the one part time lad the added jobs at the end the day sorting a second van out and customer sheets etc all adds to the workload.

I think it all sounds great until you actually start putting it into action.

Wait until you have an employee and another van then decide is you want much more of them!

I'll admit this last couple of months since I've been employing I've questioned on a daily basis whether I really want all this hassle and that's with a good worker, god only knows how hard it but be if you get a crap one.

If your prices are good a domestic business with multiple vans is as good as a commercial round. More secure too as losing customers won’t have the same impact as a large commercial job.

Sounds like you need to increase your prices.

You can only increase your prices so much in your local area.
If i increased my prices much more i wouldnt get the volume of work fast enough to grow, i already struggle at my current prices which are more than most around here....if i lowered them i would grow faster at the expense of profit.

Its not that i couldnt make profit from a larger business, i could.

I just dont think that all the investment, hassle and stress that goes along with it is worth it. The profit margins are too low, especially when VAT comes into the equation.

You need to turnover roughly 3x what you pay an employee per one man van. I guess the going rate there is perhaps £70 a day for a solid and decent worker? £210 a day from the van therefore.  If you aren't able to get that you may as well just give up. 17 £12 houses.

Those are the sort of figures I can expect an employee to do.

£210 a day is doable on my round in am 8 hour day.

My point is this.

With those prices yes I can make a profit with a larger busineaa. Without doubt I could.

BUT I don't think it's worth it.

200k turnover would be 5 vans each at 40k

20% I'd gone for vat that's 160k, let's be very generous and say I claimed half of it back so 180k

100k would be In wages and van costs (and a bit more)

That's 80k minus other expenses then tax and N.i etc

Can't be arsed doing the math but would be lucky to take 50k profit.

Why bother spending £1000s and years  of poinfs on growing that big for 50k profit a year.

I could take one van with myself and a nother in it and do 80k turnover with probably the same profit margin.

Then from this point I could invest in other businesses with less labour intensive models.

I just don't think it works for me, that's my opinion, I don't think it's worth it
 I believe I can make more money, easier elsewhere than a service business.

I make it £50k a year per van. But what’s your average job value? Surely it’s higher than £12?

Average across the board is £12.

It's never 50k though.

200 a day is 1000 a week

1000 X 47 = 47k (5 weeks holiday per employee)

That's 47 k each MAX

Don't tell me there won't be sick days, rain delays, skippers and Messer's not to mention non payers.

A more realistic figure per van is 40 k imo

Why would my average be higher than £12 ? I'm j West Yorkshire, I'm competing against guys who charge £5-£10 on average.

My average is very much at the high end. I only get about 25% of quotes handed out.

If I raised prices much more that % would lower meaning it would take me many more years and much more ££ in marketing to grow .

That's why I want to stay small, price as high as poss ( I would raise prices) to the vat limit then continue to refine work.

We never miss a day with weather. Very rare for sickness. If you start from the premise you’ll lose 12 weeks of the year, you’re doomed before you start and employing isn’t for you.

Ok well then your round is different to mine then as I can't guarantee to clean every customer every week of the year with a hitch. I might not have been doing this all that long but I've been doing it long enough to know the reality.

If you saw my other thread you will see I've lost £200 in turnover just today.

Did the beast from the east not come to your part of the UK?

Get real mate, there no point making financial forcasts based on ideal scenarios.

Ok, you caught me in a lie there. We lost one day through the snow, but in three years of employing that is the only day. £200 in turnover? Piffle! I lost 4 jobs the day before yesterday! £600 in a year. That’s the other thing about domestic though, it’s non stop marketing so they will have been replaced within a day or two.

I base all my forecasts on a van working 46 weeks as historically that’s actually less than what happens as I will usually cover some of the holidays.

I realise the weather can be a bit less forgiving in the north but as long as it is safe to do so, you should be working every day if you want to employ.

I lost 4 days with the snow, and i mean lost, it wasnt workable.
we have also had a dozen days of torrential rain this year, that isnt workable imo when its bouncing off the sills, dripping off the gutters and blowing horizontal.

I had a week off early this year due to illnesss, flu or something, coulnt get out of bed. there was no way i was going to work like that or indeed could i expect an employee to.

Like i said 47k per van max, no one can forsee what will happen but my figures were only to give a rough estimate of the sums not an exact figure, 40k is erring on the low side but id rather that than get over excited and base it on 47k which would never happen.  The numbers were just a rough idea just to show my point really that i didnt view it as worthwhile, not that it coulndnt be done.

[Marc Stock]

I like this thread 😃

How was Rixos? Bet its a shock to the system coming back here.