[windowswashed]

Even if water was to run from a solar panel to a MPPT, installers who wire them up so there is a run off of any water so it never goes into the mppt and drips/runs off the electrical lead onto the floor unless it was badly set up in the first place. Not only that but some newer mppt's and the wiring to the batteries are fused or recommended to be fused to prevent damage to the batteries or mppt in the first place

[Splash & dash]

I think he's gone for another couple of months again. Don't worry he'll be back 

Did you say 16p a panel?

Yes 16 pence a panel was what he offered me got to be having a laugh ( that was for solar farms thousands of panels)  also travel distance was over 100 miles to some site s waist of time . domestic was £30 fior 16 panels he was charging the customer £60 one of the customers showed the the email from him so I know it’s fact
Why would I clean panels for him on domestic at half the price ? We do thousands of panels a year although Ime cutting back on them as we hate doing them I would happily not do them problem is existing window cleaning cleaning customers want us to do them and it’s difficult to say no , some customers are farmers that have hundreds of them on large building roofs that we do regularly no one who workes for me wants to do them but it’s a nessasary evil any new customers I take on I won’t do there panels and I tell them that , it’s the most demoralising job going , unfortunately where I am there are hundreds of thousands of the things I estimate I get 3 to 5 enquiries per month for quite large jobs just say to busy sorry ,

[Solar Steve]

Hi Everyone.

A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!

H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.

It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:

1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3.  A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.

None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.

Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.

Hi Steve.
So, any chance of a preview of the standards that you and others are trying to get adopted please?  The more people providing input, the more likely nothing is missed.

Maybe some of the cleaners in Scotland can call themselves solar panel cleaners and only clean windows as a (99%) sideline .  A way around licensing, or have the authorities figured that out?

No. There's no chance of a preview.

As for your Scotland illustration, that's not my remit. How it's enforced is not up to me.

[Solar Steve]

Hi Steve, As Walter says ...  in the interests of safety are you you therefore able to provide some very basic tips for those on this ? For example:

• Does the installation need to be switched off during cleaning?
• Is it better to clean panels on a cloudy day?
• Is there any recommended workwear? I see on another thread you mention rubber boots will do nothing to prevent electrocution. What about rubber gloves?
• Do you have examples of anyone who has been electrocuted whilst solar panel cleaning?

I have an electrician friend who has in the past installed the electrics for many domestic solar panels and he advised the risk of electrecution is virtually nil and that it is not necessary to switch off the inverter whilst cleaning, so I'm interested to hear your viewpoint, advice & tips on this. I have cleaned domestic solar panels for a few of my window cleaning customers without problem. Some H&S tips would be very useful to all of us on here....

I've answered these questions before.

What I'd say about your electrician friend is this:

Who knows more about cleaning windows? The window cleaner or the window fitter?

I know more about cleaning solar panels, not installers. The most respected installers in the UK and international companies who operate here know this. That's why they, collectively, have asked me to compile the information.

[Solar Steve]

Hi Steve, As Walter says ...  in the interests of safety are you you therefore able to provide some very basic tips for those on this ? For example:

• Does the installation need to be switched off during cleaning?
• Is it better to clean panels on a cloudy day?
• Is there any recommended workwear? I see on another thread you mention rubber boots will do nothing to prevent electrocution. What about rubber gloves?
• Do you have examples of anyone who has been electrocuted whilst solar panel cleaning?

I have an electrician friend who has in the past installed the electrics for many domestic solar panels and he advised the risk of electrecution is virtually nil and that it is not necessary to switch off the inverter whilst cleaning, so I'm interested to hear your viewpoint, advice & tips on this. I have cleaned domestic solar panels for a few of my window cleaning customers without problem. Some H&S tips would be very useful to all of us on here....

I've never criticized Solar Steve. He is an example of what one can do when finding and exploiting a niche market. He did that when solar was just starting to 'bud' so has developed a good business from that foundation. Hats off to him.

But, if you want to clean panels in the envisaged future, this sounds as though the only way you will be able to do it legally is to at the very least attend his training school and become certified. In future other companies will also offer this certification for a fee.

So I wouldn't hold my breathe getting an answer to your post. If I was in his shoes promoting solar panel cleaning to only be done by a specialised group of trained, certified people, I wouldn't answer this either.

How do you get rid of cowboys in the industry? Simple. Its a similar plan the effects electricians, plumbers, gas fitters, window fitters, etc. You can only have qualified, certified trademen working on your property by law. So if you are a kitchen fitter, you have to call on the expensive services of other trades to complete the job.

An insightful man who understands.

[Solar Steve]

Hmmmmm....

This comes up regularly and I’m sure at some point H&s will get specific but unlikely to stop any reasonably  compentant person working as they do now - most danger comes from the inverter then from any exposed wires sticking out of the array - these are located under the array well away from any location where normal cleaning takes place so electricution is highly unlikely - unless damaged (hit with hammer or similar) while installed it’s so or be quite freaky to find a damaged panel that could expose you to a shock

It’s widely recognised that the most dangerous time to be around a solar panel array is during installation and wiring up in the correct sequence

I’m yet to find any reference to electricution while cleaning - I’d be grateful for any links (not hearsay forum stuff)

Darran

Honestly, EVERYTHING you say above about the technicalities of solar is incorrect. How can the most dangerous time to 'be around a solar panel array' be when it's not even live???

[Solar Steve]

Hi Everyone.

A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!

H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.

It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:

1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3.  A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.

None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.

Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.

Can I ask you who tasked you Ste?

Yes, but for confidentiality reasons, I can't say. For which I will probably be mocked. But at the moment, I'm not at liberty to say.

What I can say though is that I have referenced this forum on a number of occasions and it is due to the very obvious lack of knowledge, blasé attitude towards solar panel cleaning within the window cleaning community and reports on here of more than one person admitting they have been electrocuted, that has forced the relevant body on which I am a part of, that regulation is now due.

The more that people come on here and spout, the more ammo the organisation has the go to HSE and get solar panel cleaning regulated. This forum proves the problem is pandemic. That's why regulation is needed and I will continue to print threads off here, quote people, show the industry their websites etc and expose the scale of the problem.

[Solar Steve]

Surely chas and safecontracter are enough Steve?
I was thinking of going down the mcs route as a usp but the big players just want a good price with standard pqq stuff. Doing one tonight, what joy.....

Hi Og. No, CHAS is not enough. MCS is irrelevant unless you intend to install panels.

[Solar Steve]

Steve,

I will give you a serious bit of advice..knock this on the head now, you ,will be giving away your intellectual rights.  If the HSE had a problem they would have been down on the industry like a ton of bricks (I quote the HSE)
You will work your fingers to the bone, it will be adopted as a European standard and you will get ......naffole. They will own the copyright and sell it to every person who wants it. Think I am kidding study BS 14960 and you will find your future. Most major manufacturers are gone and the industry is awash with small manufacturers who have bought the "Standard". We warned them, but they had a similar ego to yours, you've been advised.

Hi Nick. Probably the best post on the thread and I do take on board all you've said. You've made some good points.

Giving away our IP is something that me and the other company are aware and concerned about. We are treading very carefully in that regard.
HSE are not aware of the scale of the issue yet. Not even the fire service knows how they are to tackle buildings that are on fire with PV on the roof. This information will be shaped to advise them too.

I'm not interested in making money from this. But I do want the personal satisfaction of knowing that if this gets published and actioned on, that I played my part. It will be a great personal achievement for me. Not many get to help write the regs for a new industry.

I'm not sure what to make of your ego comment, but for me, this isn't about ego. It's about self-accomplishment. Some would say that's the same thing I suppose... 

[Solar Steve]

So Steve if this is such a dangerous job we are still all waiting for you to come up with the details of the person you claimed was electrocuted months ago and suprise suprise you have never responded why’s that then ?. 
Again if this is such a dangerous job why do you only pay 16 pence a panel for cleaning it should be considerably more  danger money ?
As others have said I was talking to a green gen manager only last week and he said the likely hood of anyone being electrocuted is so small it’s not worth worrying about
These peopke saying these things are industry experts not a window cleaner from Telford
Yes you have done very well for your self but please stop all the scaremainering, you single handedly have destroyed what could have been a nice little job for many people cleaning panels prices are so poor it’s not worth doing them any more unless it’s domestic.
Mechanical tractor cleaners will very soon be doing most of these large sites thank goodness as it’s sole destroying work any way
Good luck with your future involvement in the solar industry I hope you are the only one approved to clean these sites you are very welcome to them all especially down hear as there are 10s of thousands of the things round hear  that need doing

1. Search on here. There are at least 3 people who admitted they've been electrocuted when cleaning PV.
2. Cleaning windows can kill you too. You can't ramp up cost based solely on risk. It's not as easy as that.
3. See my other post about who knows most about panel cleaning.
4. I am THE industry expert for solar panel cleaning across Europe. That's why they came to me and the other company isn't it? If there was someone who knew more, they'd have gone to him. But over the last 5 years, I've been brave enough to stand on stages in Telford, Birmingham, London and Milan, in front of hundreds each time, educating the industry about panel cleaning. I've written articles for Europe's leading solar publication about the subject. I continue to research and educate.  I have an idea. Why don't you come along to the next meeting we have and explain to everyone why I'm NOT the expert. They'd laugh you out of the room. They know my window cleaning roots and know I own 2 such companies. It's part of what makes me the expert.
5. I haven't destroyed prices. Like any industry, when new players enter the marketplace, the first thing they do to get market share is go in cheap. It's a race to the bottom. It's a race I'm not interested in competing in.
6. You give given yourself away with your 'sole destroying' (sic) comment. Bottom line is that you couldn't stick the jobs we gave you. I'm not sure if that was more mental or physical.

You do have loads down your way. We are down there for a whole month starting March. We will happily clean them. 

[Slacky]

THE solar panel cleaning expert ...   

[Smudger]

Hmmmmm....

This comes up regularly and I’m sure at some point H&s will get specific but unlikely to stop any reasonably  compentant person working as they do now - most danger comes from the inverter then from any exposed wires sticking out of the array - these are located under the array well away from any location where normal cleaning takes place so electricution is highly unlikely - unless damaged (hit with hammer or similar) while installed it’s so or be quite freaky to find a damaged panel that could expose you to a shock

It’s widely recognised that the most dangerous time to be around a solar panel array is during installation and wiring up in the correct sequence

I’m yet to find any reference to electricution while cleaning - I’d be grateful for any links (not hearsay forum stuff)

Darran

Honestly, EVERYTHING you say above about the technicalities of solar is incorrect. How can the most dangerous time to 'be around a solar panel array' be when it's not even live???

Now i'm worried !!

an expert that seems to lack knowledge on when the array is 'live' or not - do some more research and you will find that several installer have been shocked because the feed cable was energised without the wires being in the terminals as you should know and is widely published solar panels are live as soon as light hits them - hence turning off an inverter does not cut the power to a panel  but where possible its an added precaution

i think its easy to hype this everybody wants to go H&S crazy because its an easy way to cover your ( on site companies ) arse  if not making money is the point of this then why do we constantly get the cloak and dagger treatment

i very much doubt any goverment body will pay any attention to a half a dozen shiners on a forum - when we see some 'real' incidents things might change

i put this to you - over the last 9 years i have read about 4 or 5 cleaners who have severe injuries or death using carbon poles and touching overhead cables - so where is the legislation to prevent any untrained person using wfp ?

Darran

[Arnold Palmer]

Interestingly; if you Google "installer shocked by solar panel" there are lots.

If you Google "cleaner shocked by solar panel" you get CIU and Steve's site.

[Smudger]

Interestingly; if you Google "installer shocked by solar panel" there are lots.

If you Google "cleaner shocked by solar panel" you get CIU and Steve's site.

exactly!!

but the expert has told us all its not live when installing - he is the one lone voice of reason and truth against the world!

Darran

[Walter Mitty]

Hi Everyone.

A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!

H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.

It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:

1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3.  A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.

None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.

Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.

Can I ask you who tasked you Ste?

Yes, but for confidentiality reasons, I can't say. For which I will probably be mocked. But at the moment, I'm not at liberty to say.

So why post about it until it's finalised?
Not mocking you.  I take my hat off to someone who's gone out there and put in the effort.

If I came out and said I'd discovered how to reduce window cleaning time by 20%, but it's a secret because I and another unnamed party are going to publish a book about it and you have to buy the book to find out how, I would expect to be (rightly) ridiculed.
But I won't ridicule you or others because it's not my way.

[Marc Stock]

At the end of the day chaps, it doesn't matter what health and saftey regulations comes of this or not. Those who don't go with change will loose out. So its worth knowing about it so we can prepare our minds and businesses to move forward with any changes.

It wouldn't surprise me if in 5 years time they will look to regulate the window cleaning industry aswell. So many new window cleaning businesses have started up recently its ridiculous. And the skill levels are shocking. Truly shocking.

[Susan Dean (1stclean)]

is  this bell end still trying to be the big man  know it all ? WHAT A JOCKEY

[Nick Day]

Read what Steve has said carefully and you will realise that the HSE have made no approach at all, it is the solar power industries attempt to set policies in place to wrap up the industry for themselves.  You will hear all sorts of reports about what they believe they are achieving and how it will affect you, 99% of it will be internally generated nonsense.
If the HSE had a problem with solar panel cleaning they would have been down on it from the very outset of the installation of these panels, they certainly wouldn't wait years for a self advertised egotist and his followers to sort out a problem that they do not recognise.
At the very best for them they may get their input recognised as a British Standard, there are over 30,000 of them to cover every industry. None of them are law and never will be.
Wait for it to happen, ignore all the interim nonsense and when the Standard is published simply buy it and follow it.

[Splash & dash]

Steve,

I will give you a serious bit of advice..knock this on the head now, you ,will be giving away your intellectual rights.  If the HSE had a problem they would have been down on the industry like a ton of bricks (I quote the HSE)
You will work your fingers to the bone, it will be adopted as a European standard and you will get ......naffole. They will own the copyright and sell it to every person who wants it. Think I am kidding study BS 14960 and you will find your future. Most major manufacturers are gone and the industry is awash with small manufacturers who have bought the "Standard". We warned them, but they had a similar ego to yours, you've been advised.

Hi Nick. Probably the best post on the thread and I do take on board all you've said. You've made some good points.

Giving away our IP is something that me and the other company are aware and concerned about. We are treading very carefully in that regard.
HSE are not aware of the scale of the issue yet. Not even the fire service knows how they are to tackle buildings that are on fire with PV on the roof. This information will be shaped to advise them too.

I'm not interested in making money from this. But I do want the personal satisfaction of knowing that if this gets published and actioned on, that I played my part. It will be a great personal achievement for me. Not many get to help write the regs for a new industry.

I'm not sure what to make of your ego comment, but for me, this isn't about ego. It's about self-accomplishment. Some would say that's the same thing I suppose... 

Not Evan the fire service know how to deal with a building fire with panels on the roof , now you are in my territory steve absolute rubbish Ime in the fire service and can assure you we do know how to deal with it and recently had a significant fire in a solar farm with thousands of panels the control system was involved in the fire to the best ok my knowledge this was the first such incident in the country you are making yourself look very foolish I can prove what I’ve said with photographic evidence and the company  involved details but will not post on a public forum due to data protection issues but be warned push it and I will name names and expose you for the scaremongara that you are : you take a bit of fact and twist it to suite your own ends , why have you suddenly reappeared on hear to try and further your own course not help anyone on hear , personally I don’t care if it is regulated at some point but it will be a toothless tiger like the use of ladders regulations are no one enforces it untill an accident occurs it’s to late then , are you going to tell us that the hse  will be going out with there cameras filming people cleaning solar panels or something?
This haven’t happend with the working at height regulations although some have been fined for unsafe working practises it’s not enforceable may be with huge solar ground mount farms it might come in but we all know very soon these will be cleaned by specialist firms with automated cleaning systems and I am all for it as I personally don’t want to clean thousands of the things by hand , different regulations will be needed to clean them this way as well . If farmer Giles has a few hundred panels on his barns or small ground mount systems or domestic panels there will always be peopke who will clean them or not wether they are certified to do it or not you will never stop that , there will de dozens of companies who will offer the training and you will be at the head of the cue to deliver it you do work hard and know your stuff but there will be lots snapping at your heels who have more resources behind them than you and the monopoly you have at the moment will soon evaporate make the most of it my friend it won’t last

[Slacky]

At the end of the day chaps, it doesn't matter what health and saftey regulations comes of this or not. Those who don't go with change will loose out. So its worth knowing about it so we can prepare our minds and businesses to move forward with any changes.

It wouldn't surprise me if in 5 years time they will look to regulate the window cleaning industry aswell. So many new window cleaning businesses have started up recently its ridiculous. And the skill levels are shocking. Truly shocking.

Evolution sorts out those whose skill levels are that shocking. They dig their own graves